| Stron w wątku: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Don't cry for excessive rates, Argentina! Autor wątku: Aurora Humarán (X)
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Marcela Mestre 
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
Członek ProZ.com
angielski > hiszpański
| Same here 3 and... | Aug 28, 2007 |
Natalia Zudaire wrote:
I always quote on jobs, and never even get an answer.... now, thanks to Tampa, I know why.
If I worked for those inexistent rates, I wouldn't be able to do anything else in my life but work... wait... maybe that's what they want!
N.
(Un)fortunately, I have a husband to support me, which you can guess how 'comfortable' that gets...
As for rates, I do have a (reasonable, I believe) bottom line, but believe me, there are thousands around me who happily accept lower rates.
And Professional Associations can do literally nothing. In my case, they issue a list with rates that apply only to my province. There are no laws to rule international translation trade. To make a long story short: no one to complain about.
Just as one more example, only yesterday did I learn about a local agency paying 2 cents per source word. My colleague complained about earning as much as her house help.
I hope it taught her a lesson!
mm
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
Członek ProZ.com
od 2006
angielski > hiszpański
| Source of this information and discussions of specific outsourcers | Aug 28, 2007 |
The article in question is part of the July/August issue of the Multilingual Magazine, a publication accesible by subscription. You can find it at Multilingual's page http://www.multilingual.com/
Outsourcers may not be discussed specifically, and as far as I can see the issue is much wider than a particular outsourcer.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
angielski > hiszpański
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT | I understand - I don't understand | Aug 28, 2007 |
Enrique wrote:
Outsourcers may not be discussed specifically, and as far as I can see the issue is much wider than a particular outsourcer.
Regards,
Enrique
http://www.proz.com/post/74110#74110
Isn't Aleph Translations CEO being discussed specifically here?
«I can see the issue is much wider than a particular outsourcer.»
That's why! The emphasis is not on the outsourcer!
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
angielski > hiszpański
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT | I don't understand | Aug 28, 2007 |
http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/8#8
8 Outsourcers may not be discussed specifically. Posts or comments regarding a specific outsourcer (identified by name, reference, link or other means), whether positive or negative, are not permitted. (To indicate their likelihood of working again with a given outsourcer, site users should use the ProZ.com Blue Board.) F12
... See more http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/8#8
8 Outsourcers may not be discussed specifically. Posts or comments regarding a specific outsourcer (identified by name, reference, link or other means), whether positive or negative, are not permitted. (To indicate their likelihood of working again with a given outsourcer, site users should use the ProZ.com Blue Board.) F12
What about Rule 9? Am I (poster) respecting coypright if I post only the excerpt and not the link (as the rule says).
Excerpt AND links.
If you ask me to remove the link, am I not violating rule 9?
9 It is the responsibility of the poster to respect copyright. Use of unauthorized copies of material (copyrighted, trademarked, or otherwise protected) is forbidden. Only excerpts and links to articles may be printed, unless permission has been obtained from the publishers. In such cases, the posting must make clear that such permission has been obtained. ▲ Collapse
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Marijke Singer
Hiszpania
Local time: 02:03
Członek ProZ.com
niderlandzki > angielski
+ ...
I just had an idea that may work.
Many of the translators based in Argentina seem to be aware of the issue. Why not earmark a week, 3 days, a day or whatever in which 'all' (or all the translators who can be reached) will only accept work when it is for more than a set rate. You could then explain to your customers that between such and such a date and such and such a date the rate will be XX. Take it or leave it. Sit back and see what happens.
Even those in the worst f... See more I just had an idea that may work.
Many of the translators based in Argentina seem to be aware of the issue. Why not earmark a week, 3 days, a day or whatever in which 'all' (or all the translators who can be reached) will only accept work when it is for more than a set rate. You could then explain to your customers that between such and such a date and such and such a date the rate will be XX. Take it or leave it. Sit back and see what happens.
Even those in the worst financial difficulties should be able to manage for a few days. If customers get the same reply from most translators, there is really not much they can do.
A show of solidarity may break the trend. We could even start a fund in preparation for the specific period (through ProZ or some other venue) to help those that really need it. We do it when there is a crisis somewhere in the world. This seems to be a crisis too even though it is a man-made disaster and not a natural one. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
Członek ProZ.com
od 2006
angielski > hiszpański
Aurora Humarán wrote: Enrique wrote:
Outsourcers may not be discussed specifically, and as far as I can see the issue is much wider than a particular outsourcer.
Regards,
Enrique http://www.proz.com/post/74110#74110 Isn't Aleph Translations CEO being discussed specifically here?
I don't think so.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
angielski > hiszpański
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT | Crystal clear | Aug 28, 2007 |
Enrique wrote:
I don't think so.
Regards,
Enrique
Well, it is so obvious that I really find it hard to explain (the paradox), but I will try to do it.
I (one of ProZ.com's outsourcers http://www.proz.com/blueboard/5044 ) wrote an article that appeared in an e-magazine.
A site member posted a link to my article in "La linterna del traductor" http://www.proz.com/post/74110#74110
and a couple of colleagues (you, among others) talked about me (my position on certain issues of the profession, by the way: my position is clearly still the same) and my article. Comments are positive, but that is not relevant as per Rule 8.
That posting is against Rule 8 as much as mine was. Anywa, this is just ONE example! The site is full of similar examples!
I demand that quotes to all ProZ.com outsources receive equal treatment.
| | | | Marcela Mestre
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
Członek ProZ.com
angielski > hiszpański
| unlikely unless... | Aug 28, 2007 |
Marijke wrote:
I just had an idea that may work.
Many of the translators based in Argentina seem to be aware of the issue. Why not earmark a week, 3 days, a day or whatever in which 'all' (or all the translators who can be reached) will only accept work when it is for more than a set rate. You could then explain to your customers that between such and such a date and such and such a date the rate will be XX. Take it or leave it. Sit back and see what happens.
Even those in the worst financial difficulties should be able to manage for a few days. If customers get the same reply from most translators, there is really not much they can do.
Your suggestion seems unlikely unless 'a certain president' (mentioning his name is said to bring bad luck, ha ha) rules the country again. Only then will they realize what it is like to work for 50 dollars/ pesos a day.
In the meantime, most translators work for local agencies. There's nothing to be done but to spread the word (educate colleagues) and make them aware of the exploitation they are being (voluntarily?) subjected to.
mm
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Heidi C
Local time: 20:03
angielski > hiszpański
+ ...
| Magazine is available for free | Aug 28, 2007 |
Enrique wrote: The article in question is part of the July/August issue of the Multilingual Magazine, a publication accesible by subscription. You can find it at Multilingual's page http://www.multilingual.com/ Outsourcers may not be discussed specifically, and as far as I can see the issue is much wider than a particular outsourcer. Regards, Enrique
Actually, the article is in one of the free guides this magazine publishes, and is available to everyone! It is called "Guide to South America 2007" and is something this place is proud to be promoting
"We publish special guides four times per year to keep our readers up to date on changing technologies in the language industry. These guides are downloadable in PDF format; supplement surveys are presented in HTML format."
http://fm.multilingual.com/FMPro?-DB=vendors&-lay=CGI&-format=gettingStarted/welcomeGettingStarted.htm&-find
From what I see, nobody is talking of an outsourcer. The original posting in this forum (from what I understand, being a late comer)was sharing an article published in an accessible medium!!!
Can someone explain to me what is the problem with quoting a magazine? I cannot see how mentioning this article and providing a link to be able to read the quote in its context can be understood to be talking about specific outsourcers! (Unless it could be considered as free promotion of an outsourcer related to the publication, which might be seen as something bad??)
Sorry for my naivite...
[Edited at 2007-08-28 12:58]
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
angielski > hiszpański
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT
Marijke wrote:
I just had an idea that may work.
Many of the translators based in Argentina seem to be aware of the issue. Why not earmark a week, 3 days, a day or whatever in which 'all' (or all the translators who can be reached) will only accept work when it is for more than a set rate. You could then explain to your customers that between such and such a date and such and such a date the rate will be XX. Take it or leave it. Sit back and see what happens.
Even those in the worst financial difficulties should be able to manage for a few days. If customers get the same reply from most translators, there is really not much they can do.
A show of solidarity may break the trend. We could even start a fund in preparation for the specific period (through ProZ or some other venue) to help those that really need it. We do it when there is a crisis somewhere in the world. This seems to be a crisis too even though it is a man-made disaster and not a natural one.
Thank you for this idea, Marijke. Keep them coming. I would love this to be a brainstorming exercise for the future of our profession (and not only re the English > Spanish pair).
Au
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
angielski > hiszpański
+ ...
NOWY TEMAT
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
In the meantime, I would suggest to the Argentine translators to look at the Argentine legislation to determine whether any local laws were infringed, by the combined effort of making that publication and sending representatives to a professional conference. I’ll check whether there is any actionable cause of action under the U.S. laws.
Cordiales saludos,
Luis
This is what an Argentine lawyer has just emailed, Luis.
Thank you for your contribution in this thread.
Au
Política de Competencia
Legislación Nacional - Argentina
Ley de Defensa de la Competencia
25.1561
ARTÍCULO 1°.- Están prohibidos y serán sancionados de conformidad con las normas de la presente ley, los actos o conductas, de cualquier forma manifestados, relacionados con la producción e intercambio de bienes o servicios, que tengan por objeto o efecto limitar, restringir, falsear o distorsionar la competencia o el acceso al mercado o que constituyan abuso de una posición dominante en un mercado, de modo que pueda resultar perjuicio para el interés económico general.
http://www.sice.oas.org/compol/natleg/Argent/25156.asp
| | | | | Ad absurdum ??? | Aug 28, 2007 |
In principle this is clear - the forums are not a substitute for the Blue Board. But Aurora has pointed out a logical flaw in this policy.
Many of the people who join in discussions on the forum are outsourcers. Aurora is one, Ralf Lemster is another and there are many more. Is it against the forum rules if they comment on the way they work as outsourcers on the forums? I know that Ralf has commented on his work as an outsourcer on the forums. Is that against site rules? And what if I comment on what he says - am I then breaking the rules by discussing an outsourcer.
The article from Multilingual is another borderline question.
Aurora's intention with the link was to draw attention to an opinion expressed in a published article. Would it affect her right to quote the link if the person expressing the opinion had been a CAT salesman rather than an outsourcer?
Aurora was allowed to post the quotation, but not the link (although the link only led me to the magazine as a whole, not to the specific outsourcer nor even to the article in question). Then you, Enrique, yourself gave the link to the magazine (so quoting the magazine as a source was obviously not against the site rules).
I'm afraid I am lost by the logic of this. I would suggest that the rule about not discussing outsourcers needs to be refined.
In my view, there is no need to make any more fuss about the link in this case. Those who missed it can find the link (and indirectly the name of the outsourcer) in Enrique's message at http://www.proz.com/post/654466#654466.
But I would suggest that the site rule needs to be drafted slightly more carefully.
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Aleph _Trans
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
angielski > hiszpański
+ ...
| About concerted efforts (the Argentine law) | Aug 28, 2007 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
And what is the difference? Simply, it is starting to appear that there is a "concerted effort” by Argentine agencies (local or subsidiaries of foreig agencies) to “talk down the market", an expression that might also be stated as a "concerted effort to price fixing". At a very minimum, this is starting to fail the "smell test”.
While I am an attorney, I am not an specialist in this field. I talk only as an “interested party”, a stakeholder in translation. I will research, in the following dates, whether this infringes any US laws (and whether said laws are at all applicable, a really complex issue, considering that some of those efforts, if they were at all, were performed using an international publication that might be using a U.S. based Internet server.
In the meantime, I would suggest to the Argentine translators to look at the Argentine legislation to determine whether any local laws were infringed, by the combined effort of making that publication and sending representatives to a professional conference. I’ll check whether there is any actionable cause of action under the U.S. laws.
Quique, please, do review the applicability of the rule you invoked in this case. I do believe that it is in the interest of all the translation community to discuss all the facts, with FULL knowledge of them, including the identity of the particpants.
Cordiales saludos,
Luis
]
About concerted efforts:
http://www.sice.oas.org/compol/natleg/Argent/25156.asp
Política de Competencia
Legislación Nacional - Argentina
Ley de Defensa de la Competencia
25.1561
CAPÍTULO I
DE LOS ACUERDOS Y PRÁCTICAS PROHIBIDAS
ARTÍCULO 1°.- Están prohibidos y serán sancionados de conformidad con las normas de la presente ley, los actos o conductas, de cualquier forma manifestados, relacionados con la producción e intercambio de bienes o servicios, que tengan por objeto o efecto limitar, restringir, falsear o distorsionar la competencia o el acceso al mercado o que constituyan abuso de una posición dominante en un mercado, de modo que pueda resultar perjuicio para el interés económico general.
Queda comprendida en este artículo, en tanto se den los supuestos del párrafo anterior, la obtención de ventajas competitivas significativas mediante la infracción declarada
por acto administrativo o sentencia firme, de otras normas.
ARTÍCULO 2°.- Las siguientes conductas, entre otras, en la medida que configuren las hipótesis del artículo l°, constituyen prácticas restrictivas de la competencia:
a) Fijar, concertar o manipular en forma directa o indirecta el precio de venta, o compra de bienes o servicios al que se ofrecen o demanden en el mercado, así como intercambiar información con el mismo objeto o efecto;
b) Establecer obligaciones de producir, procesar, distribuir, comprar·o comercializar sólo una cantidad restringida o limitada de bienes, o prestar un número, volumen o frecuencia restringido o limitado de servicios;
c) Repartir en forma horizontal zonas, mercados, clientes y fuentes de aprovisionamiento;
d) Concertar o coordinar posturas en las licitaciones o concursos;
e) Concertar la limitación o control del desarrollo técnico o las inversiones destinadas a la producción o comercialización de bienes y servicios;
f) Impedir, dificultar u obstaculizar a terceras personas la entrada o permanencia en un mercado o excluirlas de éste;
g) Fijar, imponer o practicar, directa o indirectamente, en acuerdo con competidores o individualmente, de cualquier forma precios y condiciones de compra o de venta de bienes, de prestación de servicios o de producción;
h) Regular mercados de bienes o servicios, mediante acuerdos para limitar o controlar la investigación y el desarrollo tecnológico, la producción de bienes o prestación de
servicios, o para dificultar inversiones destinadas a la producción de bienes o servicios o su distribución;
i) Subordinar la venta de un bien a la adquisición de otro o a la utilización de un servicio, o subordinar la prestación de un servicio a la utilización de otro o a la adquisición de un bien;
j) Sujetar la compra o venta a la condición de no usar, adquirir, vender o abastecer bienes o servicios producidos, procesados, distribuidos o comercializados por un tercero;
k) Imponer condiciones discriminatorias para la adquisición o enajenación de bienes o servicios sin razones fundadas en los usos y costumbres comerciales;
l) Negarse injustificadamente a satisfacer pedidos concretos, para la compra o venta de bienes o servicios, efectuados en las condiciones vigentes en el mercado de que se trate;
ll) Suspender la provisión de un servicio monopólico dominante en el mercado a un prestatario de servicios públicos o de interés público;
m) Enajenar bienes o prestar servicios a precios inferiores a su costo, sin razones fundadas en los usos y costumbres comerciales con la finalidad de desplazar la competencia en el mercado o de producir daños en la imagen o en el patrimonio o en el valor de las marcas de sus proveedores de bienes o servicios
[Edited at 2007-08-28 13:22]
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto
Argentyna
Local time: 21:03
Członek ProZ.com
od 2006
angielski > hiszpański
Heidi C wrote: Enrique wrote: The article in question is part of the July/August issue of the Multilingual Magazine, a publication accesible by subscription. You can find it at Multilingual's page http://www.multilingual.com/ Outsourcers may not be discussed specifically, and as far as I can see the issue is much wider than a particular outsourcer. Regards, Enrique Actually, the article is in one of the free guides this magazine publishes, and is available to everyone! It is called "Guide to South America 2007" and is something this place is proud to be promoting "We publish special guides four times per year to keep our readers up to date on changing technologies in the language industry. These guides are downloadable in PDF format; supplement surveys are presented in HTML format." http://fm.multilingual.com/FMPro?-DB=vendors&-lay=CGI&-format=gettingStarted/welcomeGettingStarted.htm&-find From what I see, nobody is talking of an outsourcer. The original posting in this forum (from what I understand, being a late comer)was sharing an article published in an accessible medium!!! Can someone explain to me what is the problem with quoting a magazine? I cannot see how mentioning this article and providing a link to be able to read the quote in its context can be understood to be talking about specific outsourcers! (Unless it could be considered as free promotion of an outsourcer related to the publication, which might be seen as something bad??)
Hi Heidi,
Aurora's quote to the Multilingual Magazine is available in the first post of this thread. The article can be downloaded for free in the magazine's page. I am not sure if copyright laws authorizes ProZ.com to bring the article directly to our members' screens, but the path to the article is clear to anyone interested.
I agree that no outsourcer in particular is being discussed in this thread. This is ok and in line with site rules. I mentioned it just as a reminder that outsourcers may not be discussed specifically.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Niemcy
Local time: 02:03
angielski > niemiecki
+ ...
| Let's stick to English, please | Aug 28, 2007 |
I believe that the quoted legal text is relevant to this topic; at the same time, I would appreciate if we could keep this discussion in English.
Thanks, Ralf
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