| Страниц в теме: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Don't cry for excessive rates, Argentina! Автор темы: Aurora Humarán (X)
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Rodrigo Mencía 
Испания
Local time: 00:40
английский => испанский
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| Don't panic! | Aug 28, 2007 |
Don't panic, this is just the same that's happening in Spain with the textile industry. Chinese products invade the market and Spanish manufacturers can't offer the same prices.
When it comes to translation, I'm Argentine but I've been living in Spain for a long, long time. Since the very first day I started my degree in Translation and Interpreting, until I got my first job, I had that doubt in my head "Why would a client call me and pay me X if he or she can call an Argentine tran... See more Don't panic, this is just the same that's happening in Spain with the textile industry. Chinese products invade the market and Spanish manufacturers can't offer the same prices.
When it comes to translation, I'm Argentine but I've been living in Spain for a long, long time. Since the very first day I started my degree in Translation and Interpreting, until I got my first job, I had that doubt in my head "Why would a client call me and pay me X if he or she can call an Argentine translator living in Argentina and offer him or her X/2 or even less?" But time proved me that what Victor wrote's right. If you specialize, it doesn't matter where you are or how much you charge (as long as you remain reasonable), clients will come to you because your work is good. Apart from that, I have LOTS of clients who need a translator going over and over to their office and explaining them everything again and again in person. They got used to me and they like going for a coffee together, or meeting to discuss something. These type of clients will never search the Internet for a translator living a thousand kilometres away. And you also have to consider that they have to pay for the transfer, which might be ridiculous for "30 euro" (for instance, as the bank might charge from 4 to 10 euro for the transfer). Moreover, an Argentine translator will never replace a Spanish translator. Argentine translators translate using Spanish from Argentina or neutral Spanish, while Spanish translators do it using Castillian Spanish or try to be neutral as well. Except for people who have lived in both countries like me, I think that this is really difficult to achieve by the rest of translators. The same with English from India and English from the UK. I don't see the Brits pushing the panic button because the Indians are able to accept lower rates. There are some industries which have been seriously damaged by this, such as telemarketing, but I don't think translation will be the next victim (casualties? yes, I'm sure there will be... but a massacre? I don't think so). We just have to offer something more interesting and specialised, and in the Argentine case, you have to keep offering a great quality service at the same rates we do. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heidi C
Local time: 18:40
английский => испанский
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| That is my point!!! | Aug 28, 2007 |
Silvina Matheu wrote: Heidi C wrote:
Yes, the standard of living is different in different countries, and yes, maybe 0.01 is an acceptable rate in places like Argentina (though I am not really sure it is...)
Heidi, with the inflation we have now, and the prices of software and hardwares in dollars, I can assure this rate is unacceptable even in Argentina. I love translating but could not survive on these rates. And I agree with Luis, this concerns all of us! Regards, Silvina
That is my point.
NOBODY should be accepting these rates!!!
Translators are professionals. I don't know of any other profession where rates are allowed to be set by middlemen, no matter what is the standard of living anywhere in the world...
I am sure doctors and lawyers haven't lowered their fees. Neither have electricians or plumbers. And forget about the cost of food and clothing...
This concerns everyone, because translators are the ones who are allowing this to happen to themselves!!!
| | | | Speranza
Local time: 00:40
испанский => русский
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| Call for action | Aug 28, 2007 |
The steps suggested by Victor are important at the personal level, but they are not likely to change the market situation overall. On a large scale, I think the right thing to do is what Aurora is doing: Spread information. I assume if good translators work for peanuts, they simply do not know they can earn more (to a huge extent due to the helpful advice from their more experienced and wise mentors who are always ready to explain that their expectations are unrealistic…).
Here is... See more The steps suggested by Victor are important at the personal level, but they are not likely to change the market situation overall. On a large scale, I think the right thing to do is what Aurora is doing: Spread information. I assume if good translators work for peanuts, they simply do not know they can earn more (to a huge extent due to the helpful advice from their more experienced and wise mentors who are always ready to explain that their expectations are unrealistic…).
Here is a story to illustrate what I am saying. Many years ago when I was a university student, I was contacted by somebody about part-time employment they were offering. The conversation ran smoothly until the guy on the other end of the line cheerfully announced, "…and of course you understand that you will have to pay to be hired. Jobs are scarce these days and everybody wants them, so you certainly know that you can not possibly get a job without paying for it!"
The point I am trying to make here is that strictly speaking I did not really know if he was lying. (I obviously refused to pay, but that was because the idea was ridiculously absurd, not because I had correct information.) The "potential employer" on the phone emphasized in every possible way that it was common wisdom, that everybody knew it, that you either took this for granted or you didn't have the least clue as to how things were done in the market.
Now imagine this is not just one lonely brazen caller, but more or less everybody all around you. You are young – bright, OK, but inexperienced, and everywhere you go, you get the same deplorable message: Do not even dare think you deserve the money you expected. You read articles explaining how exactly you should – and will – be pulled down. You monitor professional websites and see loads of your colleagues bid, without thinking twice, for jobs whose descriptions include rates below any thinkable standards (or so you thought until that point). Agencies ask for discounts before they even include you in their databases: What if the assignment exceeds a thousand words? What about fuzzy matches? Yes, you will still be 100% responsible for that translation, but it is our policy to pay much less – after all you do have that TM.
Perhaps, considering all that, you will regard a request to pay for being allowed to work the next logical thing to expect.
I guess the most effective way to resist the trend is to spread the other part of the truth as widely as we can. Yes, better-paid jobs do exist, seek and ye shall find; yes, you do deserve respect and adequate compensation for your services; and no, you are not about to die of hunger unless you accept unacceptable conditions.
"I see these translation jobs advertised, Spanish to English at 10 US cents a word, sometimes 9 US cents a word, and I think: are you kidding me? Who takes that stuff these days? How desperate do you have to be?" wrote a well-known member of this community some time ago. If you have been here long enough, you know that the market does comprise a segment where this expression of amazement sounds perfectly natural (and probably you will not even need to search the archives to figure out who wrote that). However, if you are a newbie, you usually have much more extensive grounds to believe that any optimistic expectations are unreasonably high. Our fault. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Аргентина
Local time: 19:40
английский => испанский
+ ...
Автор темы
Rodrigo Mencía wrote:
Don't panic, this is just the same that's happening in Spain with the textile industry. Chinese products invade the market and Spanish manufacturers can't offer the same prices.
Well, yes, the cons of globalization. Nothing new.
But time proved me that what Victor wrote's right. If you specialize, it doesn't matter where you are or how much you charge (as long as you remain reasonable), clients will come to you because your work is good.
Time proved to me and to an increasing number of English > Spanish translators the opposite. Clients seem to be prioritizing money more and more.
Apart from that, I have LOTS of clients who need a translator going over and over to their office and explaining them everything again and again in person. They got used to me and they like going for a coffee together, or meeting to discuss something.
Yours are the clients of my dreams. The only time I managed to make an appointment with a client, it was so unusual that I wrote an article on that. You will agree with me that yours is quite a Disney picture. (Por favor, no leas agresividad en mis palabras ni ironía, Rodrigo, pero es que estoy como la mierda con este tema y quiero ser lo más objetiva posible. Lo que contás no es la media ni mucho menos. Sabés que tengo 25 años en el mercado y siempre estoy muy atenta a lo que está pasando: eso que decís no es lo comùn. Ojalá fuera así. Eso dejaría menos lugar a los piratas de la traducción).
These type of clients will never search the Internet for a translator living a thousand kilometres away.
No, they will not search the Internet because the are busy having coffee with you. But there are other clients. Some of my clients have become former clients because they have been contacted by undercutters and voilà!
And you also have to consider that they have to pay for the transfer, which might be ridiculous for "30 euro" (for instance, as the bank might charge from 4 to 10 euro for the transfer).
30 euro is nothing compared to the thousands they save.
Moreover, an Argentine translator will never replace a Spanish translator. Argentine translators translate using Spanish from Argentina or neutral Spanish, while Spanish translators do it using Castillian Spanish or try to be neutral as well. Except for people who have lived in both countries like me, I think that this is really difficult to achieve by the rest of translators. The same with English from India and English from the UK. I don't see the Brits pushing the panic button because the Indians are able to accept lower rates.
Too ideal, Rodrigo. Quality does not matter is the motto these days (although they know very well that Argentina will most of the times offer good quality), where in the case of a technical manual, 'costo' / 'coste'... make not much difference, but the rate does.
There are some industries which have been seriously damaged by this, such as telemarketing, but I don't think translation will be the next victim (casualties? yes, I'm sure there will be... but a massacre? I don't think so).
Do you participate in translation sites and lists? I never see you (trust me I am everywhere). If you do participate (may be you belong to the silent majority) you probably know that the massacre is here and now. You can even realized who won which account.
We just have to offer something more interesting and specialised, and in the Argentine case, you have to keep offering a great quality service at the same rates we do.
Didn't the tall guy say that quality does not matter? I heard him!
[Edited at 2007-08-28 00:53]
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Natalia Zudaire
Аргентина
Local time: 19:40
Член ProZ.com c 2004
английский => испанский
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Silvina Matheu wrote: Heidi C wrote:
Yes, the standard of living is different in different countries, and yes, maybe 0.01 is an acceptable rate in places like Argentina (though I am not really sure it is...)
Heidi, with the inflation we have now, and the prices of software and hardwares in dollars, I can assure this rate is unacceptable even in Argentina. I love translating but could not survive on these rates. ...
Yesterday I paid $5 (US$1.6) for a Coke on a gas station... inflation is not only on the technology side... how many of you are paying less than US$ 400 a month for an apartment rent here?... is that really low-cost? Please don't get the wrong idea about the cost of living here in Argentina.
I always quote on jobs, and never even get an answer.... now, thanks to Tampa, I know why.
If I worked for those inexistent rates, I wouldn't be able to do anything else in my life but work... wait... maybe that's what they want!
N.
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Чили
Local time: 18:40
английский => испанский
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While it is true that following Victor's recommendations is useful, the English > Spanish pair still is one of the worst-off nowadays and those recommendations are gradually losing effectiveness.
I agree with Au: quality is losing more and more ground, and cutting costs is becoming the Nº1 aim. Combine that with the huge number of "pirates" (as she called them) that roam the market + the complete lack of control or legislation on the profession + the pressure exerted by some big co... See more While it is true that following Victor's recommendations is useful, the English > Spanish pair still is one of the worst-off nowadays and those recommendations are gradually losing effectiveness.
I agree with Au: quality is losing more and more ground, and cutting costs is becoming the Nº1 aim. Combine that with the huge number of "pirates" (as she called them) that roam the market + the complete lack of control or legislation on the profession + the pressure exerted by some big companies ("oh, we have XX translators working for 30% of what you propose; lower you rates or else...") and the situation IS scary.
Nadejda's story is an excelent example of the situation we face, when newcomers to the business are told everywhere and at every try (be it bid, direct e-mailing, or contacted by the potential client) that rates are XX (no negotiation allowed) and let know that other people DO take those rates. And now, to make matters worse, they read the same message in a very professional/official looking online journal/publication/whatever...
Be afraid? Be VERY afraid.
On the other hand, what TampaTranslator and Heidi said is extremely important. There's a saying in Spanish (hopefully someone will be able to translate it into English) that goes:
"La culpa no es del chancho, sino de quien le da el afrecho"
(literally, 'the pig is not to blame, the person who feeds it is')
Andrea
PS: BTW, I was offered the extremely tempting rate of 0.02USD by a US agency about a month ago. The e-mail started with "We will receive a series of clinical trial protocols and wish to work only with top-professionals with proven experience in the field (...)". When I replied that the offered rate was WAAAAAAAAY below my usual rate for those kind of texts the reply was "Actually, we are looking for newcomers wishing to gain experience".
"wish to work only with top-professionals with proven experience in the field" vs. "we are looking for newcomers wishing to gain experience"
I repeat: we're talking about clinical trials here, people.
Quality my a**
Andrea ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Чили
Local time: 18:40
английский => испанский
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Natalia Zudaire wrote:
I always quote on jobs, and never even get an answer.... now, thanks to Tampa, I know why.
If I worked for those inexistent rates, I wouldn't be able to do anything else in my life but work... wait... maybe that's what they want!
N.
Andrea
| | | | Silvina Matheu
Аргентина
Local time: 19:40
Член ProZ.com
английский => испанский
+ ...
Andrea Riffo wrote: Natalia Zudaire wrote:
I always quote on jobs, and never even get an answer.... now, thanks to Tampa, I know why.
If I worked for those inexistent rates, I wouldn't be able to do anything else in my life but work... wait... maybe that's what they want!
N. Andrea
Silvina
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Steven Capsuto
США
Local time: 18:40
Член ProZ.com c 2004
испанский => английский
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| Quality doesn't matter... until it matters | Aug 28, 2007 |
I've had potential direct clients turn down my "ridiculously expensive" rates (which I can just about survive on).
But some of them have come back to me after they realized that the cruddy cheaper translations were costing them customers.
In the end, it would have been cheaper if they had had the materials translated right the first time for a bit more money, rather than having to pay for two translations of the same text in the same year.
| | | | Gillian Searl
Великобритания
Local time: 23:40
немецкий => английский
Steven has made the best point so far. One day someone is going to lose money, be sued or make a fool of themselves by using a rubbish translation and then all of a sudden reputable clients will wake up and smell the coffee.
Gillian
| | | | | Quality in the public eye? | Aug 28, 2007 |
Gillian Noameshie wrote:
Steven has made the best point so far. One day someone is going to lose money, be sued or make a fool of themselves by using a rubbish translation and then all of a sudden reputable clients will wake up and smell the coffee.
Is there any possibility to start a media campaign of some sort in Argentina?
Perhaps with a few examples of translation errors and the effect they can have on a company's reputation.
Perhaps with reports on how translators have to work long hours to make ends meet, and how they lose concentration in the middle of the night.
Perhaps with metaphors drawn from other walks of life.
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Аргентина
Local time: 19:40
английский => испанский
+ ...
Автор темы
Victor Dewsbery wrote:
Is there any possibility to start a media campaign of some sort in Argentina?
Perhaps with a few examples of translation errors and the effect they can have on a company's reputation.
Perhaps with reports on how translators have to work long hours to make ends meet, and how they lose concentration in the middle of the night.
Perhaps with metaphors drawn from other walks of life.
No use, Victor. The 'quality does not matter' concept is only an accompanying motto, but the truth is (as I said before) that most of these translators are really very good professionals. Good professionals and low rates, the temptation I have talking about for years.
Waking Up Sleeping Dogs - ARGENTINE TRANSLATORS - Capable and Cheap: An Irresistible Combination
http://tinyurl.com/yusxd6
The perception of translation as a sort of commodity (quality does not matter, work more for less, etc.) probably has to do with the brainwashing process. The poor professional quality of these translators is not the Achilles heel of this 'venture.'
[Edited at 2007-08-28 09:20]
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Marc P (X)
Local time: 00:40
немецкий => английский
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| Don't cry for excessive rates, Argentina | Aug 28, 2007 |
It's unfortunate that the original link was deleted. Without it, the impression is easily gained that this is just a typical example of a translator trying to charge more and an "outsourcer" trying to pay less, as happens every day in business dealings all over the world. This is reinforced by the reference to the rule by which the "outsourcer" may not be named.
In this particular context, the author of the text quoted by Aurora was not writing in his capacity as an "outsourcer". Th... See more It's unfortunate that the original link was deleted. Without it, the impression is easily gained that this is just a typical example of a translator trying to charge more and an "outsourcer" trying to pay less, as happens every day in business dealings all over the world. This is reinforced by the reference to the rule by which the "outsourcer" may not be named.
In this particular context, the author of the text quoted by Aurora was not writing in his capacity as an "outsourcer". The text appeared in a guide providing advice to businesses on a language strategy for South America. The guide was (or is, it's still on the 'net) a supplement to a major language-industry publication. This publication describes itself as follows:
"XXXX is the leading industry magazine for Web site globalization, international software development and language technology. Published eight times a year plus an index/resource directory, it is read by more than 15,000 people in 60 countries who have technology-based multilingual needs. Information and current news are also provided by XXXX.com and our electronic newsletter, XXXX NEWS.
"More than 15,000 readers in 60 countries read XXXX. Our readers include corporate management, IT management, consultants, software developers, localization managers, internationalization managers, translators, engineers, translation managers, system integrators and end-users. The magazine is also read by a number of leading industry analysts."
From this description, one might be forgiven for thinking that this publication serves the translation industry as a whole, rather than merely being a vehicle for the interests of one part of it (translation buyers) at the expense of another part of the same industry (self-employed translators).
Assuming that to be the case, self-employed translators should logically attempt to present their interests in the same publication, where they can be read by the same people who have read the comments quoted in part by Aurora. It's quite likely that someone reading the discussion here might be willing and able to write such an article (assuming that the journal concerned would be willing to publish it, but that brings us back to the issue of the publication's neutrality). But sadly, thanks to imposition of the "outsourcer" rule, those reading this are prevented from learning the name of the publication in which the article appeared.
Conversely, the fact that "translators" are listed as the readership only in seventh place, after corporate management, IT management, consultants, software developers, localization managers and internationalization managers, might suggest that XXXX represents the interests of a particular corner of the translation industry, a corner which not infrequently wishes to claim the label for itself and is jealous of freelance translators' independent business status. I could quote some particularly poignant examples of this, but they would no doubt also fall under the heading of "outsourcers".
Marc ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Аргентина
Local time: 19:40
английский => испанский
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Автор темы | Need to clarify something | Aug 28, 2007 |
Before we continue with this conversation (please, let's not be discouraged from talking about it!), I need to ask the following regarding the removal of part of my initial posting (its source!).
To ProZ.com
Shouldn't you go over the whole site to delete postings like the one we are talking about?
Let me give you an example:
"Claro, José Agencia de Traducciones encuentra capacitadísimos traductores (la gran mayoría egresados de carreras u... See more Before we continue with this conversation (please, let's not be discouraged from talking about it!), I need to ask the following regarding the removal of part of my initial posting (its source!).
To ProZ.com
Shouldn't you go over the whole site to delete postings like the one we are talking about?
Let me give you an example:
"Claro, José Agencia de Traducciones encuentra capacitadísimos traductores (la gran mayoría egresados de carreras universitarias de cuatro a cinco años de duración). Con formación académica, baratos y (por ahora) incautos. Una tentación enorme".
http://www.proz.com/post/74110#74110
This posting takes the reader to a link from "La linterna del traductor", an e-magazine (like Multilingual) and it quotes the opinion of an outsourcer of the site (me!) and is later commented by other members/users of the site. Isn't that breaking rule No. 8?
Shouldn't this posting be edited? In fact, shouldn't you go over the whole site to apply this rule (number 8) fairly and edit ALL threads that mention any of the thousands of outsourcers of the site (negative or positive comments)?
Why are you preventing me from making comments on a Multilingual Magazine's article (which I had done as per rules on how to quote in the Internet, i.e. with the source) if you don't prevent others from making comments on my words in "La linterna del traductor"?
I demand that the rule be applied equally to all outsourcers.
I chose only a paragraph from Multilingual Magazine, but the publication is full of information that is proof of a negative trend for the profession. I think the community should be aware of what is going on, and not prevented from knowing. A serious analysis should be done on a complete document, and not on a patchwork (should you propose me to include separate paragraphs without quoting the source). The community (of translators) needs to read that. I am not inviting my colleagues to talk about my experience with any ProZ.com outsourcer, but about somebody's public comments which are (you can infer from others' feedback given in this thread so far) highly questionable and harmful for the present and the future of translators. ProZ.com being the translators' workplace this is key.
Another example: When Susana Galilea wrote an article in ATA's The Chronicle, colleagues were invited to read the magazine (it has advertising from MANY outsourcers). Was it banned? No. It should have. would you not agree?
Now, I quote two sentences from an author and cite the source. Because he happens to "be" an agency [his connection to an agency is evident] and the article clearly is a call from an Argentine group of companies, it is forbidden.
Please clarify.
Thanks ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Аргентина
Local time: 19:40
английский => испанский
+ ...
Автор темы
Aurora Humarán wrote: Waking Up Sleeping Dogs - ARGENTINE TRANSLATORS - Capable and Cheap: An Irresistible Combination http://tinyurl.com/yusxd6
I guess I broke Rule 8 again.
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