| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Answer with clear mistake selected in Kudoz, what now? Thread poster: delveneto
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Yaotl Altan 
Mexico
Local time: 08:18
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
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Split Kudoz between 2 answers.
| | | | delveneto
United States
Local time: 10:18
English to Portuguese
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TOPIC STARTER | Split possible? | Jun 21, 2009 |
Yaotl Altan wrote:
Split Kudoz between 2 answers.
Is it really possible to split KudoZ? I have read some saying it is, some saying it is not. Since I never posted a question, I don't know. Splitting seems to me a very good idea in cases that two answers are almost the same (like the case I described in my previous post but decided on removing it due to the risk of violating rules here).
| | | | | Points can't be awarded to more than one answer | Jun 21, 2009 |
Yaotl Altan wrote:
Split Kudoz between 2 answers.
Points can't be awarded to more than one answer. This is stated in the following FAQ
2.16 - Can I award points to more than one answer?
No, you may only select one "most helpful" answer. Dividing points among answerers has been considered previously, but discarded based on the relatively little benefit which would be gained, and the difficulty of implementing administration of points and such problems as dividing four points among three answers. A useful guideline for cases where you cannot decide on an answer is to choose the one which helped you most. In the case of two or more equally helpful answers, you may choose the first (things tend to even out for answerers over time.)
Regards,
Enrique
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That's the reason why disagreeing is so important. There are so many people that take KudoZ so seriously that they get personally offended when they get a disagree or they're too scared to offend anyone so they never disagree. I've seen tons of 'neutrals' when an answer is blatantly wrong, which can confuse the asker and anyone that finds that question in the future. A bold, red, in-your-face disagree is truly important, if another answer is proposed or not. And I'm saying this as a KudoZ glossa... See more That's the reason why disagreeing is so important. There are so many people that take KudoZ so seriously that they get personally offended when they get a disagree or they're too scared to offend anyone so they never disagree. I've seen tons of 'neutrals' when an answer is blatantly wrong, which can confuse the asker and anyone that finds that question in the future. A bold, red, in-your-face disagree is truly important, if another answer is proposed or not. And I'm saying this as a KudoZ glossary user. ▲ Collapse
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hazmatgerman (X)
Local time: 16:18
English to German
KOG entries and commenting on them is a short-term route to give hints to those using KOG later. It may occasionally help an asker, too. However, on the long run all has been said by Armbruster.
[quote]Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
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Enforcement of the old rules for asking questions would go a long way toward professionalizing pro-level KudoZ.
...[/unquote]
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[quote] The "devaluation" of the old Kudoz system and the resistance of Proz to any ideas and proposals to clean the KOG or to improve the quality of the Kudoz system is the reason why I more or less stopped answering questions, and I guess the day is not far where I completely stopp using the system.[/unquote]
Stopping altogether may be unhelpful to those deserving of and valueing help, IMO.
| | | | | KudoZ often deals with exceptional situations, and is NOT a dictionary. | Jun 22, 2009 |
I agree with a lot of the comments above.
There are several reasons why answers chosen may be "wrong", but the asker has in fact awarded points to the asker who helped most in that situation.
1.
Answerers - and I've done it myself - guess in areas they do not know enough about. That is OK if the confidence level is low and they give a warning to check and double check.
It may help as a step in the right direction if not entirely correct,... See more I agree with a lot of the comments above.
There are several reasons why answers chosen may be "wrong", but the asker has in fact awarded points to the asker who helped most in that situation.
1.
Answerers - and I've done it myself - guess in areas they do not know enough about. That is OK if the confidence level is low and they give a warning to check and double check.
It may help as a step in the right direction if not entirely correct, and be awarded points as 'most helpful'.
An answer like this should perhaps prompt a disagree from someone who knows better. This person can then give a reason and everyone can learn from it.
Personally, I am not offended by disagrees. I thank the person who explains my mistake, because it saves me from making the same mistake in an assignment for a client. So keep them coming where appropriate!
2.
On other occasions the whole reason for posting a question is that the term is used in an unusual context or seems out of place.
It may be a mistake in the source text, and sometimes the answer to the KudoZ question is: Tell your client that there is (probably) a mistake, and they mean something entirely different. This can very easily lead to a strange, if not entirely "wrong" entry in the glossary. It may need editing!
I have seen several discussions like this, where a translator cannot understand a sentence, and native speakers of the source language explain what is meant. The discussion, references and contributions lead the asker to a solution for the specific situation, but this is not a translation that should normally be used for the term posted.
Here moderators and editors are allowed to change the glossary or add 'in this context only' or some such comment if the akser does not do so.
3.
A third possible situation is interference between two languages.
I cannot think of any examples in KudoZ, but I have had discussions about the use of English words in Danish, in senses that are not normal in English.
There could certainly be questions about how to 'translate' them into more mainstream English, especially if the target readers of the source text are not native speakers of English...
I am sure the phenomenon is not exclusive to Danish!!!
(I mean an expression like 'handy' in German for a mobile phone, or Danish 'babylift' for a carry-cot.)
4.
Take the colloquial expressions and euphemisms that cannot be translated literally. Greetings are notorious.
And sometimes, for reasons only known to themselves, askers go for the literal translation...  OK, that is almost certainly wrong.
Here the correct answer is the corresponding expression that would be used in the target language, in the appropriate situation, which very often may be controversial.
Danes greet each other frequently with 'Tak for sidst' - Literally 'thanks for last' (= last time we met). It may be an empty, purely phatic remark, called across the road to an aquaintance, who replies, "ja, lige maade!" (the same to you!) and walks on.
Depending on context, this 'polite formality' may in fact contain untold hidden meanings, from friendly to threatening, and be followed up by a conversation. What would be said in the target language will vary enormously depending on the stuation. It would be impossible to enter anything into the glossary except something like 'Nice day, isn't it?' or 'Horrible weather we're having!'
Both of which would be totally wrong in other contexts, but might just have fitted perfectly for the asker who posted the question...
5.
There are of course occasions when a wrong answer really is wrong
KudoZ is a game, folks. Some answerers are absolutely brilliant, but no one is perfect. And it all depends on context...
That's why I'm addicted to KudoZ. Gloating over the mistakes boosts my ego. But they also serve as a warning and I need not make the same ones again.
Happy translating!
[Edited at 2009-06-22 10:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:18
Spanish to English
| KudoZ shouldn't be a game | Jun 22, 2009 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
KudoZ is a game, folks.
Here we go again. I don't want people answering my KudoZ questions thinking it is just a game, let's put anything down and see if we get away with it and walk off with some points today. This is supposed to be a site for professional translators and KudoZ is supposed to be a place where serious professionals can get help with terms they find complicated, so it shouldn't be treated as "just a bit of fun".
If KudoZ is just a game, then why are those with the most points listed first in the directories? Am I the only one who finds all this illogical?
Perhaps it's just time to go and seek and offer help elsewhere. Any suggestions?
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 16:18
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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| A few comments | Jun 22, 2009 |
Nikki Graham wrote:
If KudoZ is just a game, then why are those with the most points listed first in the directories? Am I the only one who finds all this illogical?
Yes indeed, these discussions do not cease to surprise me with contradictions.
Nikki Graham wrote
Perhaps it's just time to go and seek and offer help elsewhere. Any suggestions?
Yes, dictionaries, lexicons, specialized glossaries authored by academic linguists and subject-matter experts legally authorized and reviewed at the highest standards ( hard copies mostly). This must go hand in hand with the competence of the one who's leafing through and using the dictionary, as it requires a specialized linguistic knowledge and methodology as well.
[Edited at 2009-06-22 10:42 GMT]
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Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
Germany
Local time: 16:18
English to German
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| I couldn't agree more! | Jun 22, 2009 |
Nikki Graham wrote: Christine Andersen wrote:
KudoZ is a game, folks. Here we go again. I don't want people answering my KudoZ questions thinking it is just a game, let's put anything down and see if we get away with it and walk off with some points today. This is supposed to be a site for professional translators and KudoZ is supposed to be a place where serious professionals can get help with terms they find complicated, so it shouldn't be treated as "just a bit of fun". If KudoZ is just a game, then why are those with the most points listed first in the directories? Am I the only one who finds all this illogical? Perhaps it's just time to go and seek and offer help elsewhere. Any suggestions?
I second every word!
Plus:
The fact that many translators spend much time discussing the KudoZ system here and on other forums/threads clearly shows that it is NOT a game at all.
@Christine: How can you call it a game? I am really surprised to read that.
| | | | | KudoZ is a game like football is a game. | Jun 22, 2009 |
There are professionals who take football VERY SERIOUSLY.
And belive me, I take KudoZ very seriously.
It is the way I 'keep fit' professionally, or to go over to another metaphor, it is the way I oil and sharpen my tools.
I riffle through dictionaries and visit databases I do not need for every job, just to make sure I can find them and am familiar with them when I do need them.
But as soon as a client mails with a job, I stop 'playing' and get down t... See more There are professionals who take football VERY SERIOUSLY.
And belive me, I take KudoZ very seriously.
It is the way I 'keep fit' professionally, or to go over to another metaphor, it is the way I oil and sharpen my tools.
I riffle through dictionaries and visit databases I do not need for every job, just to make sure I can find them and am familiar with them when I do need them.
But as soon as a client mails with a job, I stop 'playing' and get down to work. If it is a rushed job, I even turn off KudoZ mails to avoid being interrupted. I don't earn my living by it.
I answer questions when I can, seriously and to the best of my ability, because I know asking is not a game; people ask because they really need help.
I take it just as seriously as a musician playing scales and doing exercises.
And in fact I know people who take their hobbies and games more seriously than their work!
I just don't worry if someone else grabs the points I was hoping for.
I know I can't win them all, and I never let myself lose sleep over KudoZ.
For answerers it is a trial run of translation, not the real thing. But like all good games it is instructive and keeps you on your toes.
That is what I mean by 'it's a game' - mostly that it should not be spoilt by nitpicking rules, and when you don't enjoy it, you should feel free to take a break and go and do something else. It is not a duty like meeting your next deadline.
It's just a game like chess is just a game, or bridge is just a game.
Or any game that calls for skill and expertise.
Some people may work for a living, but their games are what they live for.
I don't go quite that far with KudoZ, but don't misunderstand me when I call it a game!
Enjoy playing it, or take time out!
[Edited at 2009-06-22 12:25 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | it is a game for many and yes, the 'winners' list' is illogical and often misleading | Jun 22, 2009 |
Nikki Graham wrote: Christine Andersen wrote:
KudoZ is a game, folks. Here we go again. I don't want people answering my KudoZ questions thinking it is just a game, let's put anything down and see if we get away with it and walk off with some points today. This is supposed to be a site for professional translators and KudoZ is supposed to be a place where serious professionals can get help with terms they find complicated, so it shouldn't be treated as "just a bit of fun". If KudoZ is just a game, then why are those with the most points listed first in the directories? Am I the only one who finds all this illogical? Perhaps it's just time to go and seek and offer help elsewhere. Any suggestions?
For many people Kudoz is a game and/or venue for grandstanding. The days when people only answered if they knew the languages and fields are long gone. Just as with jobs, where we sometimes see the same translator posting questions in every field under the sun, some people now want to appear capable of answering every field under the sun too. And there are also a few who seem to feel that all languages are accessible to them as well.
I'll never understand how anyone can refer to a "reliability ratio" under these circumstances. There are a few people who have climbed in the Kudoz 'ratings' just by putting in appearances 24/7, answering any and all questions. Often with ridiculous suggestions, but familiarity breeds trust on Proz. So clueless Askers decide these familiar faces must know something since they are always present. Their 'rise' in the Kudoz statistics starts and the downfall of Kudoz, glossary and all, begins.
Unfortunately Kudoz has indeed become a game-and imo there are no winners.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 16:18
French to German
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writeaway wrote:
Unfortunately Kudoz has indeed become a game-and imo there are no winners.
Has anybody thought about the fact that the points system could actually prevent translators from participating in KudoZ?
Laurent K.
Edit: some colleagues seem already to go in this direction.
[Edited at 2009-06-22 13:33 GMT]
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| How do you actually define wrong?? | Jun 22, 2009 |
I get very tired of people who complain about Kudoz because they expect it to be different, or do not accept it for what it is.
No one has ever claimed that all the answers are definitive. I gave some examples earlier of why an answer may be fine in one context, and quite out of place in another. This does not make it wrong. Anyone may post a term again and ask for a second round of opinions.
Perhaps it varies from one language pair to another, and I am lucky. Of... See more I get very tired of people who complain about Kudoz because they expect it to be different, or do not accept it for what it is.
No one has ever claimed that all the answers are definitive. I gave some examples earlier of why an answer may be fine in one context, and quite out of place in another. This does not make it wrong. Anyone may post a term again and ask for a second round of opinions.
Perhaps it varies from one language pair to another, and I am lucky. Of course there are occasionally wrong answers in "my" pairs, but in Scandinavian languages at least, they are few and far between compared with the numbers of serious and well-founded contributions.
I do use the glossary, and I watch a lot of areas as Moderator where I do not participate.
If the answers are really wrong, Moderators can edit the glossary, although we do not have time to check everything, and nor do we have the expertise, except in our own fields. But if someone with a convincing answer does draw our attention to an error, we can make changes.
Everyone else can still add comments for or against after that.
KudoZ is not compulsory.
It has its limitations, but if allowances are made for those, it has its uses too. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Hair-raisingly wrong answers | Jun 22, 2009 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
I get very tired of people who complain about Kudoz because they expect it to be different, or do not accept it for what it is.
No one has ever claimed that all the answers are definitive. I gave some examples earlier of why an answer may be fine in one context, and quite out of place in another. This does not make it wrong. Anyone may post a term again and ask for a second round of opinions.
It has its limitations, but if allowances are made for those, it has its uses too.
Let's call a spade a spade. KudoZ has been attracting more and more totally incompetent users who are simply not ready to be translators professionally. I'd say there are now at least as many totally unqualified users as there are actual professionals.
When we talk about "wrong answers" that's exactly what we mean. Some of the answers chosen are out and out hair-raising, mind boggling. As others have pointed out (writeaway), we're not talking about marketing phrases, for example, where there is no right or wrong answer, we’re talking about basic stuff that anyone qualified to be working in the field should know and still gets totally wrong.
| | | | PRen (X)
Canada
Local time: 11:18
French to English
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| Thank you Kim | Jun 22, 2009 |
Kim Metzger wrote: Christine Andersen wrote:
I get very tired of people who complain about Kudoz because they expect it to be different, or do not accept it for what it is.
No one has ever claimed that all the answers are definitive. I gave some examples earlier of why an answer may be fine in one context, and quite out of place in another. This does not make it wrong. Anyone may post a term again and ask for a second round of opinions.
It has its limitations, but if allowances are made for those, it has its uses too.
Let's call a spade a spade. KudoZ has been attracting more and more totally incompetent users who are simply not ready to be translators professionally. I'd say there are now at least as many totally unqualified users as there are actual professionals. When we talk about "wrong answers" that's exactly what we mean. Some of the answers chosen are out and out hair-raising, mind boggling. As others have pointed out (writeaway), we're not talking about marketing phrases, for example, where there is no right or wrong answer, we’re talking about basic stuff that anyone qualified to be working in the field should know and still gets totally wrong.
Yes, hair-raising would be the correct term.
But then, when askers have so clearly not even bothered looking in the dictionary, I tend to think they deserve what they get.
It's for points: it's a game. As for people who amass billions of points, I always ask myself, if they're such great translators, why aren't they translating? Who has time for this? Only those with acres of time on their hands it seems.
I think anyone choosing a translator based on number of points is in for a sad shock, particularly given that you can "win" points simply for agreeing.
Kudoz is a joke, and has been for a long, long time. The site owner simply doesn't care.
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