| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Askers should wait 24 hours before grading or transfer the grading rights to the community Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto
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| An annoying new feature in my opinion! | Jun 12, 2009 |
Hi
I've just come up against this new feature and find it irritating.
I posted what amounted to a simple question. I quickly got a well-documented and clearly correct answer. However, I can't thank the person, choose and grade their answer and move on. Instead, I have to remember I have a question open, grade 24 hours later or be reminded to do so by Proz.
I absolutely agree that waiting 24 hours is often the right way to go as it allows all ProZ users to c... See more Hi
I've just come up against this new feature and find it irritating.
I posted what amounted to a simple question. I quickly got a well-documented and clearly correct answer. However, I can't thank the person, choose and grade their answer and move on. Instead, I have to remember I have a question open, grade 24 hours later or be reminded to do so by Proz.
I absolutely agree that waiting 24 hours is often the right way to go as it allows all ProZ users to contribute. In certain instances though, there is no need to wait.
In practical terms, ProZ no longer "recommends" waiting 24 hours but "obliges" us to do so.
Grrrrrrrr!!! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Communication | Jun 12, 2009 |
Jack Doughty wrote:
I would like to say that as this discussion progresses, my concern is more with the manner of staff responses to it than with the question itself (it is irritating to have to wait 24 hours to retain control of my asker's rights, but I can live with that). It is possible to make a case for a blanket 24-hour restriction, and I respect those who are doing so even if I do not agree with them. It is not possible to keep on repeating that there is no restriction of asker's rights involved, when there quite obviously is.
What sort of "ocracy" is ProZ.com? A meritocracy? I would like to think so. A democracy? No, and it has never claimed to be one. A bureacracy? Sadly, I think that is now becoming an apt description.
Some problem arises concerning the forums, KudoZ, or some other aspect of the site. A discussion takes place in the forums. The subject fades out and nothing more is heard for months. Then a new rule is introduced without any warning. At this point it becomes the "party line" and no significant change to it will take place, not for years anyway. Further forum discussions take place but are not allowed to have any effect. Suggestions in them, good or bad, are met with stonewalling assertions that all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds,
and the substance of them is not addressed.
It would be great to see the site hire a pro translator to talk to us about translation issues that concern us. Maybe one of the excellent moderators who resigned recently. Someone who has extensive practical experience in the trenches of translation on a daily basis with some translation quality control background, and when it comes to KudoZ, someone who has used the tool extensively and knows what we are talking about.
| | | | | A perfect case, just today! | Jun 13, 2009 |
I haven't had a chance to digest everyone's comments on my post, but I will get back to you. In the meantime, a perfect case came up today. I invite your attention to http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3300611.
I answered that question with what I thought was the correct solution, what with my recent studies in horticulture. Two colleagues agreed (one "strongly"). At around that point the asker sen... See more I haven't had a chance to digest everyone's comments on my post, but I will get back to you. In the meantime, a perfect case came up today. I invite your attention to http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3300611.
I answered that question with what I thought was the correct solution, what with my recent studies in horticulture. Two colleagues agreed (one "strongly"). At around that point the asker sent me an e-mail off-line, frustrated with the "software" because she couldn't award me my points. I won't quote her because I don't have her permission, but this is what I wrote back to her - again, via off-line e-mail, not on ProZ:
"Thanks, Wendy. No problem. The site is probably forcing you to wait 24 hours, which is a good practice. Better answers often turn up 'as the world turns'. Muriel"
Then lo and behold, a couple of hours later another colleague comes along with - you guessed it! - a better answer!!! Now I try to be fairly sure about my answers before I post them, and I try to be honest with myself about my level of certainty. I think I'm pretty experienced after about 40 years as a professional translator. And I think I meet at least some of the entry criteria for belonging to the KudoZ meritocracy. **But I don't trust myself to always choose the right answer, much less post it.** I'm keenly aware that I can make mistakes, that I don't know everything, and that my path in life is to keep learning - which is precisely why I play the KudoZ game.
This is a perfect example of the asker being blocked from awarding the points with the ultimate outcome being better for everyone.
**My main point in all of this debate is that the 24-hour wait is an automatic, neutral way of bringing the best possible answers to the surface.**
Muriel
[Edited at 2009-06-13 04:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Attila Piróth 
France
Local time: 14:44
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| A perfect case indeed | Jun 13, 2009 |
Muriel Vasconcellos wrote: a perfect case came up today. I invite your attention to http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3300611. ... At around that point the asker sent me an e-mail off-line, frustrated with the "software" because she couldn't award me my points.
Hi Muriel,
Indeed a good example, which illustrates my points:
- The 24-hour recommendation is useful.
- This is the very first question the asker has ever posted on ProZ.com. She wanted to take a premature and not sufficiently informed decision -- typically, this happens to new users.
- You say the user was frustrated. Is it due to the current implementation? Yes. Could it be avoided by better informing the users? Yes. So, should the current solution be changed?
- To take a better informed decision, she needs guidance. You supplied this guidance in your email -- and she listened to you. Don't you think that a well written explanation that would show up when she tries to close the question could have the same effect?
- Imagine that, frustrated by the fact that she cannot close the question, she would have opted for for waiving her rights, and let the community's decision prevail. Supposing that you are right, and the other answerer's answer is better, that other answer would have needed to get three net agrees more than yours (don't forget, in case of a tie, your answer, which was the first, would be selected). Don't forget, anyone can vote. I can vote for your answer – or can even disagree with the other answer. So, is this alternative, which was introduced in the current implementation, really useful? I don't think it is a real alternative: I don't see why, under the present constraints, an appropriately informed asker would choose this option rather than say "OK, I will wait for 24 hours".
- I simply don't see why the behavior of a new KudoZ asker should impose constraints on what Jack, who has been using the system for no less than 9 years, can do. The problem is just to take informed decisions, nothing more.
Attila
[Edited: third bullet point added]
[Edited at 2009-06-13 07:43 GMT]
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| If the computer does it, it's neutral | Jun 14, 2009 |
Attila, Who is going to "scold" the people who are new to the site? Tell the novices that they are being rash? What human system do we have in place for accomplishing what you want? Our membership dues don't cover that level of service.
In reference to question http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3300611, there is more. I went back and realized that the new suggestion was faulty as well, so I did so... See more Attila, Who is going to "scold" the people who are new to the site? Tell the novices that they are being rash? What human system do we have in place for accomplishing what you want? Our membership dues don't cover that level of service.
In reference to question http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3300611, there is more. I went back and realized that the new suggestion was faulty as well, so I did some more research and finally came up with a satisfactory answer - not the first answer, not the second answer, but the third one.
These debates are rich and educational. Patricia Rosas (herself a very experienced translator) has been posting questions for several weeks that have elicited some fascinating debates among other experienced colleagues. The early answers get the ball rolling, and then interesting alternatives emerge.
Because of my geographical location, in the mornings I often get left out of the loop. By the time I get to my desk (until the recent change), my KudoZ in-box was always full of questions that had already been closed. I speak from the experience of seeing many good answers rejected out of haste (time would have elicited more "agrees" and supporting comments) or losing the opportunity to post answers that I thought would have been better.
Discussion is good!! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Patricia Rosas
United States
Local time: 05:44
Spanish to English
+ ...
In memoriam | positive . . . | Jun 14, 2009 |
Muriel Vasconcellos wrote:
Why are you worried about askers' rights? They're lucky to have a flock of colleagues at their beck and call to help them solve their problems. What about askers who aren't even ProZ members? I've seen people log in and post sentences from a love letter or an instruction manual. We can't pick and choose which askers have more decider rights than others.
I agree with Muriel that this feature is needed (although, like Liz noted, sometimes I'm just overwhelmed by all of ProZ's bells and whistles).
Over the past 4 weeks or so I've been struggling with some very difficult texts, including poorly transcribed and unedited interviews. By leaving the questions open for a time, people got into some VERY interesting discussions about what the core meaning was and how best to convey it in English.
I'm very grateful to those colleagues, who have generously shared their time and talents with me.
That said, I am also disgusted with a number of answers (mostly to other people's questions) that I keep seeing. People who can't speak/write intelligible English answering and then arguing if someone corrects them!
Although I don't really track whether those answers get selected or not, just searching the KudoZ glossary reveals that there is a lot of garbage in there. We need to do whatever we can to keep those sorts of entries to a minimum.
Thanks for listening!
Patricia
| | | | Patricia Rosas
United States
Local time: 05:44
Spanish to English
+ ...
In memoriam | Muriel's example | Jun 14, 2009 |
Muriel Vasconcellos wrote:
These debates are rich and educational. ... The early answers get the ball rolling, and then interesting alternatives emerge.
Because of my geographical location, in the mornings I often get left out of the loop. By the time I get to my desk (until the recent change), my KudoZ in-box was always full of questions that had already been closed. I speak from the experience of seeing many good answers rejected out of haste (time would have elicited more "agrees" and supporting comments) or losing the opportunity to post answers that I thought would have been better.
Discussion is good!!
I just saw Muriel's and Attila's exchange, and Muriel's discussion about the "third" answer. Doesn't everyone do research? I'm beginning to think a lot of ProZers just go with the first thing that pops into their heads!
I believe that Attila is supporting Muriel's idea and just wants the window that pops up to be clearer.
Being in the same time zone as Muriel (half of the year anyway), I also find that I wake up and question I would have like to answer are closed.
What harm can it do to wait?!
Among other things, I often find that as I work my way through a text, the term or phrase I posted a question for begins to become clear to me, and I'm better able to select the "right" answer (or so I hope). Sometimes in my sleep, the solution pops up.
In either case, I can return to the question -- 24 or more hours after I posted -- and see if my answer is there. If not, I pick one that comes close (very close) -- or possibly I decide I was hallucinating during the night! :-0
I often add quite a bit of explanation about why I chose a particular answer, and if I'm considering using something else, I make that clear. After all, frequently, there are multiple "right" choices, and it is a matter of judgment which is the "best" one.
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 14:44
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Related thread | Jun 15, 2009 |
Muriel Vasconcellos wrote:
Attila, Who is going to "scold" the people who are new to the site? Tell the novices that they are being rash? What human system do we have in place for accomplishing what you want? Our membership dues don't cover that level of service.
Hi Muriel,
As a moderator, I contacted several new users, and explained the utility of waiting before grading on several occasions. A lot of moderators have done the same -- it is a part of moderators' responsibilities to help and guide the newcomers.
As for scolding -- well, I have seen a lot of impatience toward newcomers on the forums and in KudoZ alike. I have seen a lot of helpful advice, too. And I have seen lots of occasions when the newcomers made bad choices/decisions, and nobody got back to them about it. Which did not help them overcome their problems easily. That is why I am for better informing them. There is a lot that can be done in this respect, wouldn't you agree?
Muriel Vasconcellos wrote:
These debates are rich and educational. Patricia Rosas (herself a very experienced translator) has been posting questions for several weeks that have elicited some fascinating debates among other experienced colleagues. The early answers get the ball rolling, and then interesting alternatives emerge.
Yes, absolutely. And I am quite sure that if an experienced user like Patricia has a truly difficult term, she won't take a quick decision. She will most probably wait for well over 24 hours -- until she is sure that she can take an informed decision. But I am even surer that transferring the grading rights to the entire community is the last choice she would make under such circumstances.
When I say that the enforced 24-hour restriction is unnecessary for Jack, I have in mind questions like the ones mentioned in lexical's post. I believe that most of those who argue for having the right to close a question in less than 24 hours would use this possibility only rarely: in most cases they would wait well over 24 hours. Would not you agree that a Pro certified translator is able to evaluate his/her needs to this extent?
Muriel Vasconcellos wrote:
Because of my geographical location, in the mornings I often get left out of the loop. By the time I get to my desk (until the recent change), my KudoZ in-box was always full of questions that had already been closed. I speak from the experience of seeing many good answers rejected out of haste (time would have elicited more "agrees" and supporting comments) or losing the opportunity to post answers that I thought would have been better.
Yes, I agree. As an example, you brought up a question posed Friday night. The 24-hour restriction would suggest to the asker that she could have taken a sufficiently informed decision on Saturday night.
Muriel Vasconcellos wrote:
Discussion is good!!
You see, we agree on practically all points. A lot of interesting points have arisen in this thread. I suggest that we try to analyze the issue by components, so I opened a new thread about the new alternative introduced by Enrique's implementation: transferring the grading rights to the community. Would you use this option for your own questions?
Kind regards,
Attila
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| I would never deliberately leave closing my question to chance | Jun 15, 2009 |
Much as I respect many of the members and users of this site, I never know which of them are on line at any given moment.
This is a very good reason for waiting 24 hours before grading, and I practically always do. I have once or twice closed after 20+ hours before a weekend or going on holiday, knowing I would not get back for a few days. Which is an argument for flexibility rather than rigid rules.
But then I do make sure I grade my questions myself.
I don't exp... See more Much as I respect many of the members and users of this site, I never know which of them are on line at any given moment.
This is a very good reason for waiting 24 hours before grading, and I practically always do. I have once or twice closed after 20+ hours before a weekend or going on holiday, knowing I would not get back for a few days. Which is an argument for flexibility rather than rigid rules.
But then I do make sure I grade my questions myself.
I don't expect any of "the community" to make my decisions for me in this kind of question.
The site is open to everyone, which I like, but it does mean it is necessary to make allowances in various ways for newcomers and those who are not (yet) top professionals.
I know a few non-members personally, and might actually ask them for advice in their fields of expertise before trying KudoZ, but I do not know who is going to add 'agrees' to KudoZ answers, and I would not leave grading and selecting entries for the glossary to them.
The majority are seriously trying to be helpful, but some problems in the glossary are caused by BrowniZ hunters who add 'agrees' to the least stupid answer, so that it is selected by the robot, when the question really should have been closed without grading because there is no adequate answer.
Other 'agrees' are added by people who go for the literal translation rather than the expression actually used in the target language, or just because they like the answerer for one reason or another.
Some beginners do not realise how many others actually use the site, and overestimate their own expertise for a month or two (or longer...)
The real experts are usually busy working and do not have time to monitor all questions to make sure they agree with the best answer every time.
Letting the community settle the matter is OK as a safety net when the asker really disappears or is not experienced enough to close the question, but I think there are too many unknown factors out there for it to be a reliable way of selecting answers for the glossary.
[Edited at 2009-06-15 16:22 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 14:44
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Related thread #2 | Jun 16, 2009 |
24-hour partial results of the first feedback thread are available now. Those who answered the original question of that thread unanimously stated that under no circumstances would they transfer their own grading rights to the community. A summary of the arguments presented in the parallel thread against option b) can be found here; further arguments have been mentioned mentioned i... See more 24-hour partial results of the first feedback thread are available now. Those who answered the original question of that thread unanimously stated that under no circumstances would they transfer their own grading rights to the community. A summary of the arguments presented in the parallel thread against option b) can be found here; further arguments have been mentioned mentioned in the present thread.
I have just opened a second feedback thread, Feedback please #2: Would you advise anyone to transfer their grading rights to the entire community, which aims at exploring whether users would ever advise others (e.g., newcomers) to transfer their grading rights to the entire community. Please consider contributing to it.
Kind regards,
Attila ▲ Collapse
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto
Argentina
Local time: 09:44
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | Looking into usage patterns | Jun 18, 2009 |
Hi all,
Thanks for your feedback in this and other threads.
Staff are currently collecting usage data on this new feature, which will be used to evaluate its usefulness to KudoZ participants.
Usage data and other forms of feedback will then be used to make further decisions on this feature.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto
Argentina
Local time: 09:44
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | Some preliminary usage statistics | Jul 2, 2009 |
Some preliminary results:
Historically a 23% of questions were closed during the first 24 hours after asking time. This percentage fell to 0 due to the new feature.
Curently about 3.9% of all questions are passed to the community for grading during the first 24 hours.
A survey on all the questions of a day where the askers attempted to close the question during the first 24 hours showed the following a week after asking time:
* Abou... See more Some preliminary results:
Historically a 23% of questions were closed during the first 24 hours after asking time. This percentage fell to 0 due to the new feature.
Curently about 3.9% of all questions are passed to the community for grading during the first 24 hours.
A survey on all the questions of a day where the askers attempted to close the question during the first 24 hours showed the following a week after asking time:
* About 60% of these questions were closed by the asker
* About 30% of these question were closed through the community
* About 10% were still open a week after asking time
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
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| Questions on statistics | Jul 3, 2009 |
Enrique,
Could you provide some clarification on the numbers?
You said:
Historically a 23% of questions were closed during the first 24 hours after asking time. This percentage fell to 0 due to the new feature.
It is no surprise it fell to 0, as the new feature prevents closing within 24 hours.
The 23% historical figure is interesting, but what happened after the new feature was introduced? What was the percentage of those questions where the asker ATTEMPTED to close within 24 hours? Should we assume that was about 23%, too?
I guess not, because if we assume 23%, then the rest of the numbers won't add up:
Curently about 3.9% of all questions are passed to the community for grading during the first 24 hours.
The 3.9% of all questions would mean 17% of the 23% attempted closings, yet you say 30% were closed through the community. 17 is not close to 30, so which one is true?
What would be interesting to see is the trend in attempts to close questions within 24 hours. Did the percentage of questions where the asker attempted to close within 24 hour change over time since the introduction of the new feature? (You have more than 2 weeks of data to see if there is any trend.)
Also, did the ratio between the two choices (wait 24 hours to close myself vs. pass rights to the community) changed over time since the introduction of the feature?
[Edited at 2009-07-03 04:38 GMT]
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto
Argentina
Local time: 09:44
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | Some more elaborated statistical data | Jul 3, 2009 |
Thanks Katakin, you are right that the first statistics provided above were not complete.
When the asker attempts to close the question in the first 24 hours after posting this leaves no trace in the database, so statistics based on this action are taken manually from control notifications sent to staff.
We have no such data from the first days after the implementation but this is not so relevant, as the important data is that of steady state, when the feature has been ... See more Thanks Katakin, you are right that the first statistics provided above were not complete.
When the asker attempts to close the question in the first 24 hours after posting this leaves no trace in the database, so statistics based on this action are taken manually from control notifications sent to staff.
We have no such data from the first days after the implementation but this is not so relevant, as the important data is that of steady state, when the feature has been used for some time.
Some more elaborated statistical data:
Historically a 23% of questions were closed during the first 24 hours after asking time. This percentage fell to 0 due to the new feature.
In about 13% of the questions the askers are currently attempting to grade them during the first 24 hours after asking time
Currently about 3.9% of all questions are passed to the community for grading during the first 24 hours.
In a survey taken a week later on all the questions of a day where the askers attempted to close the question during the first 24 hours (about 13% of all questions) we found:
- About 60% of these questions were closed by the asker
- About 30% of these question were closed through the community (this is 30% of 13% of all questions, or about 3.9% of all questions, compatible with the figure above, calculated by a different method).
- About 10% were still open a week after asking time (this is 10% of 13% of all questions).
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Ok, so what does this data say? | Jul 3, 2009 |
Enrique,
You said you wanted to see the usage statistics "to evaluate its usefulness to KudoZ participants".
So, what does this data say in this respect?
Katalin
[Edited at 2009-07-03 15:04 GMT]
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