| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Askers should wait 24 hours before grading or transfer the grading rights to the community Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto
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| Focusing on trivialities | Jun 3, 2009 |
Sorry, Enrique, but in my opinion (and it seems I'm not alone in this) you are heading in the wrong direction. Closing questions - whether prematurely or not, which is just a matter of definition anyway - should be left to the asker, not the community. I agree wholeheartedly with everything that Jack, lexical, Kim, Rebekka and Mette have written, so there's no need to repeat it here.
What I would like to repeat, however, - even at the risk of you deleting my post or locking this thr... See more Sorry, Enrique, but in my opinion (and it seems I'm not alone in this) you are heading in the wrong direction. Closing questions - whether prematurely or not, which is just a matter of definition anyway - should be left to the asker, not the community. I agree wholeheartedly with everything that Jack, lexical, Kim, Rebekka and Mette have written, so there's no need to repeat it here.
What I would like to repeat, however, - even at the risk of you deleting my post or locking this thread - is that you are focusing on trivialities instead of addressing the real problem areas, such as the KudoZ glossaries. They contain so much rubbish, it's unbelievable. Assign people (editors) to clean them up instead of inventing new obstacles to make life more difficult for the community.
ProZ is a great place, and you guys are doing a great job. And I fully agree that rules, regulations and certain restrictions are needed - but there's enough of them already. Don't spoil the fun of participating in KudoZ completely. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 08:23
Dutch to English
+ ...
| Not just the right but also a responsibility | Jun 3, 2009 |
I just looked at a question where the asker had chosen an answer (the right answer i.m.o.) and closed the question but left grading to the community. So now everyone has scramble and put in agrees in order to make sure that the right answer gets the points. That is not our responsibility, and what if we don't do it? This is not a good idea - it is the asker's responsibility to close the question and award points. Only if the asker fails to do so after repeated reminders, should points be awarded... See more I just looked at a question where the asker had chosen an answer (the right answer i.m.o.) and closed the question but left grading to the community. So now everyone has scramble and put in agrees in order to make sure that the right answer gets the points. That is not our responsibility, and what if we don't do it? This is not a good idea - it is the asker's responsibility to close the question and award points. Only if the asker fails to do so after repeated reminders, should points be awarded based on the number of 'agrees'.
I completely agree with Mette that this was working fine the way it was before.
I also agree with LittleBalu: this is a trivial issue. The more nitty-gritty rules you add to the system, the more unwieldy it becomes. The many wrong answers in the glossary would be a much more worthwhile issue to direct our energies to. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto 
Argentina
Local time: 11:23
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | The asker's choice prevails if the community does not "vote" | Jun 3, 2009 |
Tina Vonhof wrote:
I just looked at a question where the asker had chosen an answer (the right answer i.m.o.) and closed the question but left grading to the community. So now everyone has scramble and put in agrees in order to make sure that the right answer gets the points. That is not our responsibility, and what if we don't do it?
If the community fails to provide enough agrees for a definition, then the answer selected by the asker is chosen.
Enrique
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2009-06-03 19:22 GMT]
| | | | lexical
Spain
Local time: 16:23
Portuguese to English
| ultimately, this is unsolvable | Jun 3, 2009 |
This issue - of trying to 'discipline' askers who rush to accept the first answer provided - is in my view unsolvable. There will always be translators who are out of their depth and grab at the nearest answer (come on, admit that you've sometimes been out of your depth too - I know I have, but I've tried not to repeat the mistake). Forcing them to wait 24 hours is not suddenly going to make them any better at choosing a sensible answer. They are floundering - and will continue to flounder after... See more This issue - of trying to 'discipline' askers who rush to accept the first answer provided - is in my view unsolvable. There will always be translators who are out of their depth and grab at the nearest answer (come on, admit that you've sometimes been out of your depth too - I know I have, but I've tried not to repeat the mistake). Forcing them to wait 24 hours is not suddenly going to make them any better at choosing a sensible answer. They are floundering - and will continue to flounder after 24 hours, 48 hours or however long Proz.com dictates.
The sad - and inescapable - fact is that the Kudoz model - and, more broadly, the Proz.com model generally - is fundamentally flawed. Take away the focus on winning points and the link between points earned and translators' rankings in the directory, and concerns about whether people have had the opportunity to lodge their answers lose importance. The system design has been flawed from the outset and is basically unmendable - certainly by the sort of tinkering that Enrique is proposing.
I would not be the first by any means to argue that translators' competence should not be measured by their ability to answer terminology questions, especially when the result is judged so imperfectly. Why would anyone imagine that a translator who has accumulated vast numbers of Kudoz points because he/she has the spare time to answer questions within minutes (not actually employed translating real texts?) and who feels capable of answering almost any question on any subject (oh, that I should be such a polymath!) should be ranked first in lists presented to potential outsourcers? The top ranking users in my language pair have each accumulated thousands of Kudoz points but I wouldn't feel confident in delegating a simple 2-page contract to any of them.
However, there's no point me or anyone else banging on about this because countless people have made this point on countless occasions and it has not made a ha'porth of difference to the Proz.com authorities' attitudes.
Forget it folks, it ain't going to get any better. Be like me - I used to occupy a high ranking in Kudoz but I decided to devote that time to my work instead, and am now 10% better off financially. ▲ Collapse
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Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 16:23
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Proposed solution with guidance for inexperienced users | Jun 8, 2009 |
This proposal aims at treating the problem of premature closing of KudoZ question (before the recommended 24-hour deadline) without forcing the askers to make any choice that they could feel uncomfortable with.
The recently implemented change the KudoZ closing process was criticized in this thread by several experienced KudoZ users, who feel that they lose their freedom to close a question when they feel appropriate to do so. I am strongly in favor of finding a solution that is not... See more This proposal aims at treating the problem of premature closing of KudoZ question (before the recommended 24-hour deadline) without forcing the askers to make any choice that they could feel uncomfortable with.
The recently implemented change the KudoZ closing process was criticized in this thread by several experienced KudoZ users, who feel that they lose their freedom to close a question when they feel appropriate to do so. I am strongly in favor of finding a solution that is not subject to such criticism. In my view, it is perfectly feasible.
The problem of prematurely closed questions exists, and the implemented solution would treat them – but it would be an overkill. As an ex-KudoZ moderator, I observed this problem from close, and I agree with Kim Metzger that the problem is very much related to inexperienced KudoZ users. They need to be guided. On the other hand, if the problem hardly exists among experienced KudoZ users, treating it is unnecessary. Some of these experienced KudoZ users expressed their objection against being forced to handle the right of choosing the best answer to the community if they try to choose the most helpful answer before the recommended 24-hour limit. Since ProZ.com declares itself to be a meritocracy (ProZ.com's 13th cornerstone), it seems logical to seek a solution that would be able to guide inexperienced users without restricting the rights of experienced ones in any form.
When the asker starts to close the question within 24 hours, a window comes up, with a perfect headline: "Askers are encouraged to wait at least twenty-four (24) hours before closing a question." In my opinion, this warning alone would deter the majority of inexperienced users who try to close their question early. Some additional explanation could be added – but the necessity of choosing between not closing the question yet and leaving the closing decision to the community should be removed.
This window would probably not deter experienced users who know exactly why they want to close their question: for example, because they fully understand that one of the answers is what they need and they want to make it clear to others that no further help is needed. Such experienced users are unlikely to make frequent mistakes of selecting an answer that turns out to be inferior a posteriori. And in this case prematurely closing a question is not a problem —so it does not need to be cured.
Prematurely closed questions pose a problem if a posteriori they turn out to be inferior. The clearest indication for this is that they receive post-grading peer disagreements. And in my experience it is true that prematurely closed questions receive more post-grading peer disagreements than those that were closed after the 24-hour recommendation. So, I propose that the choice of closing before the 24-hour deadline is kept, but if an asker decides to do so in spite of the first warning window mentioned above, another window appears after the question has been closed:
Did you know that 80% of post-grading peer disagreements to answers selected as most helpful occur in questions that were closed within 3 hours of posting? (Of course, the exact figures should be adjusted; staff has the necessary data for that).
This would inform the inexperienced users of the dangers of closing a question prematurely. True, they are not prevented from making that mistake – but I am sure that by letting them a chance to take a bad decision and giving an informative guidance of how to avoid that would be a very efficient way to reduce the number of such problems. At the same time, experienced KudoZ users would not feel constrained in their choice – which is an informed choice in the overwhelming majority of cases.
Seeing the previous window a couple of times should be enough for most users to get the message. It could be set that it should show up a certain number of times – these details can be fine tuned later. It is also conceivable that if a user keeps on making bad choices systematically after the learning period, the message would show up again.
An alternative way would be to allow closing KudoZ questions before the 24-hour limit only to those users who have already closed X questions (or proved themselves to be experienced KudoZ users in another way). This would also be in line with the meritocracy concept. For one, I certainly prefer to try to inform users and to let them make the mistake for themselves – that is probably the quickest and best way to learn.
Kind regards,
Attila
*** Edited to add link to ProZ.com's cornerstones ***
[Edited at 2009-06-08 21:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:23
Russian to English
+ ...
In memoriam | Yes, this would be an improvement | Jun 8, 2009 |
As one of the experience KudoZ users you mention who objects to the enforcement of a 24-hour limit for everyone, I think Attila's proposal would be an improvement to the present situation, enabling experienced users to exercise their own judgement, and deterring much premature answering by those who might otherwise do so.
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:23
Spanish to English
| Agree wholeheartedly with Attila's proposal | Jun 9, 2009 |
No need to reproduce it all again here. I'm not keen on this new introduction of passing the grading decision to the community, especially because there is no indication when you answer a question that this is what the asker may decide to do, which I feel is unfair on answerers.
Let me explain. These days, due to time constraints, I usually only answer construction/architecture questions, many of which can be highly complicated, and I usually get to them long after the agree sheep h... See more No need to reproduce it all again here. I'm not keen on this new introduction of passing the grading decision to the community, especially because there is no indication when you answer a question that this is what the asker may decide to do, which I feel is unfair on answerers.
Let me explain. These days, due to time constraints, I usually only answer construction/architecture questions, many of which can be highly complicated, and I usually get to them long after the agree sheep have passed through. Where is the incentive for me to spend 15 minutes or so answering a question (that's how long it can take sometimes, even if I know the answer off the top of my head, if I want to try to find refs to "convince" people of my argument) if another person's answer already has two agrees (given hours before) and the asker may throw it over to the community to decide? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Get editors to tidy up the glossary instead... | Jun 9, 2009 |
Attila is so right.
There are times when there is one clear answer to a question - like the name of the painting mentioned above, or that type. Then it only tempts less experienced members to try and invent something if the question is left open.
It is very hard to make rules for KudoZ, because it is on the edge of established terminology, often where languages are developing to accommodate new products and concepts.
What I would like to see is a rule that... See more Attila is so right.
There are times when there is one clear answer to a question - like the name of the painting mentioned above, or that type. Then it only tempts less experienced members to try and invent something if the question is left open.
It is very hard to make rules for KudoZ, because it is on the edge of established terminology, often where languages are developing to accommodate new products and concepts.
What I would like to see is a rule that forces askers who close without grading to enter the answer they "found elsewhere" if there is one.
It is enormously irritating to spend time looking for a term and be met with: "ha ha, it's my secret!"
I feel it is quite against the principle of sharing in KudoZ. It is just plain rude to ask for help and then not share the results.
It should not IMHO be possible to close a question within 24 hours without accepting an answer or adding the one "found elsewhere" as a proposal for the glossary.
Many of those who answer KudoZ do it as a kind of exercise and investment, because the same questions may turn up again, and it is great to find the answer in the glossary without having to wait for new answers.
And in my pairs at least, there are far more useful suggestions with good references and excellent discussions than wrong answers, all produced under the 'old' system.
There are unsatisfactory or outdated entries too, of course, but I don't think this proposal will reduce those.
Just my thoughts on the subject. ▲ Collapse
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| That's what I suggested ... | Jun 9, 2009 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
Get editors to tidy up the glossary instead...
... both in this thread and earlier in another thread on GBK questions (that was locked afterwards because my post and those of other posters were considered "off-topic").
| | | | | The 24-hour restriction was long overdue - What happened? | Jun 10, 2009 |
This morning I noticed a question was closed (with an iffy answer) and points were awarded without the 24-hour wait. Have we gone back to the old days?
I breathed a huge sigh of relief when I saw the new feature. FINALLY! Then this morning it was gone. What happened??
I was too lazy to weigh in when the feature was introduced, and there may be a lot of others like me. Over and over again (often several times in the same day) I have seen poor answers get chosen quickly, ... See more This morning I noticed a question was closed (with an iffy answer) and points were awarded without the 24-hour wait. Have we gone back to the old days?
I breathed a huge sigh of relief when I saw the new feature. FINALLY! Then this morning it was gone. What happened??
I was too lazy to weigh in when the feature was introduced, and there may be a lot of others like me. Over and over again (often several times in the same day) I have seen poor answers get chosen quickly, with resulting pollution of the glossary. Not only does this practice pollute the glossary, **allowing strange answers to get selected does a disservice to translators who are learning their craft, both the askers and the answerers.**
A number of experienced colleagues have shared with me their serious concern about the problem. We sometimes shudder to see the answers selected and wonder what the rest of the asker's translation could possibly be like.
If the best answer is the quickest one, waiting for confirmation reinforces the quality of the answer. If the question is challenging, better answers emerge as the debate progresses. If it's a flaky answer, time will correct that.
I long ago made a mental list of quick closers and stopped answering their questions, because I know they are not interested in a serious debate about getting the best possible translation for the context.
If people want to use an answer before closing the question, nothing stops them. That happened to me a couple of days ago. Askers should be happy to take the time to go back the next day and close the question - it's the least they can do, given the time their colleagues have devoted to helping them out.
[Edited at 2009-06-10 21:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto
Argentina
Local time: 11:23
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | Please submit a support request | Jun 11, 2009 |
Muriel Vasconcellos wrote:
The 24-hour restriction was long overdue - What happened?
This morning I noticed a question was closed (with an iffy answer) and points were awarded without the 24-hour wait. Have we gone back to the old days?
I breathed a huge sigh of relief when I saw the new feature. FINALLY! Then this morning it was gone. What happened??
Thanks Muriel,
The feature is still in place. Would you mind sending the URL to that question by means of a support request?
Kind regards,
Enrique
| | | | | Are you sure? | Jun 11, 2009 |
Enrique wrote: The feature is still in place. Would you mind sending the URL to that question by means of a support request? Kind regards, Enrique
Well, it worked once in my pair (EN-FR) but never again since. Every day I see questions closed before 24 hours have passed. I thought the feature had been abandoned following this thread (to my great pleasure)...
[Edited at 2009-06-11 12:38 GMT]
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Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:23
Russian to English
+ ...
In memoriam | What about Attila's proposed solution? | Jun 11, 2009 |
While we have Enrique's attention, how about some response to Attila's proposal?
| | | | Enrique Cavalitto
Argentina
Local time: 11:23
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER | Please submit a support request | Jun 11, 2009 |
Stéphanie Soudais wrote: Enrique wrote: The feature is still in place. Would you mind sending the URL to that question by means of a support request? Kind regards, Enrique Well, it worked once in my pair (EN-FR) but never again since. Every day I see questions closed before 24 hours have passed. I thought the feature had been abandoned following this thread (to my great pleasure)... [Edited at 2009-06-11 12:38 GMT]
Hi Stéphanie,
Would you mind sending by means of a support request the URL to any of the recent questions that would have been closed before 24 hours?
Thanks,
Enrique
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 17:23
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
| 24 hours is too short | Jun 11, 2009 |
In many language combinations (where translators are busy translating, not staring at Kudoz) it can take days before anyone bothers to answer. And even after weeks the suggestions often are not helpful. But the system sends remainders to the asker according to the number of answers. Last time I simply shut the question to stop this annoying function.
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