| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Google Translate: The New Plague Thread poster: jmleger
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| Not exactly new. | Dec 6, 2010 |
Yes, I've seen it done for years, but not only by translators. Once in a while I get a request from an "agency" to edit a text that has been translated by Google Translate or similar, so that they can save the money of hiring a serious translator.
It's for that reason that I stopped doing editing years ago...
BTW, I somebody wants to have a laugh, I just posted an article on my blog about machine translation as executed on my own blog, title "Be smart & stinky #1 with M... See more Yes, I've seen it done for years, but not only by translators. Once in a while I get a request from an "agency" to edit a text that has been translated by Google Translate or similar, so that they can save the money of hiring a serious translator.
It's for that reason that I stopped doing editing years ago...
BTW, I somebody wants to have a laugh, I just posted an article on my blog about machine translation as executed on my own blog, title "Be smart & stinky #1 with Machine Translation". You can find it at http://www.seo-translator.com/be-smart-stinky-1-with-machine-translation/ ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X) 
France
Local time: 13:49
French to German
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| Sad but true... | Dec 6, 2010 |
Evonymus (Ewa Kazmierczak) wrote: jmleger wrote:
Proz.com does not allow us to post a rate any longer. Translators tell us what they require. I for one am very happy about this, because as outsourcers we cannot be blamed any longer for the going rates, which is a great relief. Proz did us a great service by applying this policy.
Oh please this was a cosmetic change only. Outsources are perhaps not allowed to post their rates, but bidders (translators and "translators") are allowed to quote any rates, even the dumping ones. Correct me if I'm wrong (I seldom bid for jobs on Proz). Ewa
I have to agree with Ewa on that point. And I would like to add that some outsourcers still post rates. You will see them if you have the option enabled, as well as you will see the warning about "This rate is considered as being too low by 80% of the community" - not the exact wording, but that's the idea.
| | | | jmleger
Local time: 06:49
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER
I find your comment useful. It had not occured to me that the process might be reversed, but after all why not. There are cheaters on both sides of the equations. I, too, refuse to edit the copy of people I do not know. Editing a translator you know well, can be a real pleasure because both of you gain by the process. Finding oneself in front of a blob of unknown origin is another matter altogether. I was tired of telling clients"Sorry, it would take me less time to redo the whole thing", which... See more I find your comment useful. It had not occured to me that the process might be reversed, but after all why not. There are cheaters on both sides of the equations. I, too, refuse to edit the copy of people I do not know. Editing a translator you know well, can be a real pleasure because both of you gain by the process. Finding oneself in front of a blob of unknown origin is another matter altogether. I was tired of telling clients"Sorry, it would take me less time to redo the whole thing", which is what I think when I read something out of GT. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | and with some agencies? | Dec 6, 2010 |
I guess that you should do the same I do with some agencies that send you a "proofreading" or "editing" job which turns out to be some GT or other MT translation that takes you longer to edit than starting from scratch.
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jmleger
Local time: 06:49
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | We are all subject to market forces | Dec 6, 2010 |
We never post any rate. We let translators determine what they want, and we choose among the offers, balancing what each brings to the table against what the translator wants. If you have an inflated notion of your worth, I am not responsible for that. and the same goes when we quote a job to a client and are told we went with so-and-so because it was cheaper. We take our leaks and make sure next time our quote is more in line with that market. It's the offer and demand game, and that can't be r... See more We never post any rate. We let translators determine what they want, and we choose among the offers, balancing what each brings to the table against what the translator wants. If you have an inflated notion of your worth, I am not responsible for that. and the same goes when we quote a job to a client and are told we went with so-and-so because it was cheaper. We take our leaks and make sure next time our quote is more in line with that market. It's the offer and demand game, and that can't be regulated artificially. We are not running soviet tractor factories.
I hope this puts an end to the question of rates, although have my doubts. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 07:49
Spanish to English
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| The real danger with Google Translate | Dec 6, 2010 |
is not when the translation is ungrammatical or nonsensical (something even the novice and monolingual can catch), but rather when the translation sounds right (plausible meaning, proper grammar, syntax), but the source text says something entirely different. In addition, sometimes words and phrases are omitted. I hope GT has a legal disclaimer on their website because somewhere along the line someone is going to rely on GT for something important resulting in serious financial loss and maybe ev... See more is not when the translation is ungrammatical or nonsensical (something even the novice and monolingual can catch), but rather when the translation sounds right (plausible meaning, proper grammar, syntax), but the source text says something entirely different. In addition, sometimes words and phrases are omitted. I hope GT has a legal disclaimer on their website because somewhere along the line someone is going to rely on GT for something important resulting in serious financial loss and maybe even (regrettably) human injury or death.
It can come up with an interesting idiomatic translation every once in a while, but you have to check each and every word for accuracy and omissions. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 07:49
Spanish to English
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| My apologies... | Dec 6, 2010 |
J.M. Leger wrote:
We never post any rate. We let translators determine what they want, and we choose among the offers, balancing what each brings to the table against what the translator wants. If you have an inflated notion of your worth, I am not responsible for that. and the same goes when we quote a job to a client and are told we went with so-and-so because it was cheaper. We take our leaks and make sure next time our quote is more in line with that market. It's the offer and d... See more J.M. Leger wrote:
We never post any rate. We let translators determine what they want, and we choose among the offers, balancing what each brings to the table against what the translator wants. If you have an inflated notion of your worth, I am not responsible for that. and the same goes when we quote a job to a client and are told we went with so-and-so because it was cheaper. We take our leaks and make sure next time our quote is more in line with that market. It's the offer and demand game, and that can't be regulated artificially. We are not running soviet tractor factories.
I hope this puts an end to the question of rates, although have my doubts.
****
Like Ewa, I was highly skeptical about what I also saw as the cosmetic changes of discouraging the posting of rates and/or providing disclaimers of low rates on Jobs Board postings. Yet, in your case, the change seems to have engendered an enhanced sensitivity to what constitutes viable rates for professional translators. This is to be commended.
I therefore salute you on emerging from the depths of the bottom feeders, and I promise you that I will be examining the job offers you post with renewed interest.
[Edited at 2010-12-06 20:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mr Florida
Local time: 07:49
German to English
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| The value of free | Dec 6, 2010 |
There is an easy fix: Rather than fishing for the bottom dollar every time, build relationships with real translators.
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Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 07:49
Spanish to English
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Also, for those of you who do not know (because I did not):
A few days ago, I saw a job posted and the suggested rate (hidden for non-members) was around .03. The message displayed above the rate (automatically generated by Proz) said something like "This rate is below the minimum rate for over 80% of the translators listed on ProZ..." All the more reason to make sure your rates are updated in your profile!
[Edited at 2010-12-06 20:37 GMT]
| | | | Dawn Montague
United States
Local time: 07:49
German to English
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jmleger wrote:
As a project manager, I have become aware these past few month of a new practice among some translators. Namely, we see some people trying to pass off translations made with Google translate as their own. Sometimes the copy is more or less edited, sometimes, it is serveed raw! (As if there was a chance in a million of the trick actually working). We note this particularly when we supply Word files or similarly editable copy to translators.
We have established a policy at our firm. If after a few tests of the copy we can establish that the copy went through Google Translate (in a preponderance of evidence), we inform the translator, reject the work, and cross him/her of the list of our providers for ever + 1 day.
My questions are: has anyone else noticed this? And what measures have you taken?
Should the be some sort of special official stigmata to mark these people as a danger to the profession, not to mention the clients they purport to serve? How could we sanction these people, we as a group? Are we condemned to act individually in the face of such dishonesty and lack of professionalism? If it were a question of pay I might understand it, but sometimes it's the better paid people who pull stunts like that, which is doubly infuriating.
Hi JM,
I originally commented and said I agreed with Robert about the price issue. Actually, I still do, but I think I should explain.
Technically, I guess, I am both a translator and an outsourcer, although outsourcing is now relatively rare for me. I stopped acting as an agency several years ago because I love translating but hate being a PM all the time. (By the way, I greatly admire PMs who get it right. It's a very demanding job, and requires a different skill set from those of a translator.) Now I outsource to colleagues only when the client knows about it and wants me to do so, and then I only outsource to people whose work I know well and trust.
I believe there are a number of issues involved here:
1. This may be more of an aside - but in the US at least, you are not supposed to be able to tell your subcontractors how to perform their work. It is the end product that matters. If you start telling them what software to use, etc., you could be in danger of having your vendors classified as employees, and then you have to pay the related taxes. Therefore, telling someone whether they can use MT while performing their job (or that they have to use a specific CAT tool, for that matter) is a no-no. (I know, it's done all the time, but that doesn't - and shouldn't - change the law).
The end product is what matters.
2. That said, I detest the use of MT in the manner you describe just as much as you do. It's lazy and dishonest. And if MT is used to help translate a document, there shouldn't be the least little trace that it was used when the translator is done. I have also received editing jobs that were represented as "translations" which were actually done by running them through Google Translate without any editing. In the most recent case, the agency owner was a subcontractor for another agency (one of the really big ones), and I'm not sure she realized the document was merely translated by Google. Such jobs should be rejected, of course.
By the way, CAT tools in the hands of the inexperienced or unqualified can also be behind such disasters. Although purportedly originally developed to increase consistency and productivity, the most obvious thing they are now marketed for is cost reduction, and much of my own experience with them has proven that quality can deteriorate very rapidly when they are used incorrectly (a situation strongly encouraged by not paying for repetitions or 100% matches, or by paying a lower rate than an editing fee for these).
3. So why is this a growing problem? As others have mentioned, it might be dishonesty. It might be a lack of qualifications. Or it might be greed (and no intention of nurturing a long-term relationship) - or all of the above. It certainly isn't the work of a professional. Do I think price is associated with this trend? Definitely!
You can make so much more money when prices are low by simply putting your translation through Google and making a few changes (or none). If the agency is huge, no one may even notice because many poor editors will fix it without saying much for fear of losing a client.
What stands out to me in your posts are some of the things you do not say.
For instance, what do you consider a higher rate? You only write of "better paid" translators who use Google Translate. This makes me wonder what the "better paid" translators are being paid (Incidentally, the "average" rates shown in the "community rates" on ProZ are relatively low for better professionals).
And how do you vet your translators? Unfortunately, I believe the larger the operation, the more risk that operation is exposed to because you cannot get to know all of your translators well. I believe strong relationships make a difference.
In the end, a *professional* translator who is making a living wage (and this does not differ that much around the world - another topic entirely - and means being able to support a family, including enough for decent housing, food, health care, educating the children, etc.) by doing a *sustainable* number of words per day (depending on the language, 1500 - 2500 per day perhaps). When you think about what you are paying translators, think about how much you would need for these things and what rate you would have to charge in order to do this on a mere 2000 words per day.
My conclusion based on experience - careful vetting and a living wage will greatly increase quality and reduce the temptation to use ill-advised shortcuts.
I hope this helps, and perhaps clarifies a few things behinds the rates issue.
[Edited at 2010-12-06 23:37 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-12-07 01:52 GMT]
| | | | | The use of MT is as unethical as the use of reverse auctions. | Dec 6, 2010 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote: Evonymus (Ewa Kazmierczak) wrote: jmleger wrote:
Proz.com does not allow us to post a rate any longer. Translators tell us what they require. I for one am very happy about this, because as outsourcers we cannot be blamed any longer for the going rates, which is a great relief. Proz did us a great service by applying this policy.
Oh please this was a cosmetic change only. Outsources are perhaps not allowed to post their rates, but bidders (translators and "translators") are allowed to quote any rates, even the dumping ones. Correct me if I'm wrong (I seldom bid for jobs on Proz). Ewa I have to agree with Ewa on that point. And I would like to add that some outsourcers still post rates. You will see them if you have the option enabled, as well as you will see the warning about "This rate is considered as being too low by 80% of the community" - not the exact wording, but that's the idea.
Dear jmleger,
I think the use of reverse auctions like ProZ.com is as unethical as a translator delivering raw GT. Just on both sides nobody cares.
You can count on me: I do not really take part in the reverse auctions and I do not use Google translate or any other MT stuff! High quality human translation comes at a price.
Just throw the job bidding systems into the dust bin, build your database of high quality translators, confess yourself to high quality translation and you will really have a point to complain about the next translator you come across, who is using MT!
The signers of The petition tried to change ProZ.com to make it a place of the most experienced of us. Henry D. bought some make-up and implemented some cosmetic changes. You described the results very well in this thread. I am searching hard to find a better place to be than ProZ.com.
René Stranz-Nikitin
www.uersn.de
[Edited at 2010-12-06 22:39 GMT]
| | | | Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:49
French to English
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Thanks Ramon
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| Reducing cost trends | Dec 7, 2010 |
TargamaT wrote:
Last week we applied for a project with really a reasonable price and, as in general, we proposed a specialized translator and engaged our responsibility in the outcome.
However, the vendor preferred other colleague and now we see this colleague asking wild questions as he does even not understand the technological framework!
I think that translators use Google alike as vendor 1st eliminating point is THE reduced price...
Agree. I always say that this is a legacy of progress in Internet and computing: human translation is taken less and less seriously. My recent days have only cheap job contacts.
Soonthon Lupkitaro
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 13:49
English to Polish
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René Stranz-Nikitin wrote:
I think the use of reverse auctions like ProZ.com is as unethical as a translator delivering raw GT. Just on both sides nobody cares.
So just that I can rephrase.
You think using the proz.com job posting system is an unethical as delivering garbage instead of a translation?
It takes a peculiar sense of ethics (or humor?) to wander this deep into Preposterous Land.
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 13:49
French to German
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| Outsourcing involves *real risks*... | Dec 7, 2010 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote: jmleger wrote:
As a project manager, I have become aware these past few month of a new practice among some translators. Namely, we see some people trying to pass off translations made with Google translate as their own. Sometimes the copy is more or less edited, sometimes, it is serveed raw! (As if there was a chance in a million of the trick actually working). We note this particularly when we supply Word files or similarly editable copy to translators. Consider that many translation agencies are really NOT looking for long-term relationships, and consider that some wannabes REALLY think they can get away with GT. What can be done on both sides long before drama hits the floor?
and my quoted question still remains unanswered.
Let's face it: this is NOT a discussion about GT per se, but rather a discussion about 1) how GT slowly but surely takes its place in our daily life as translation professionals and about 2) the fact that there are more and more "translators" will use technologies without having a) a sound understanding of them and b) enough professional ethics (anymore?) to abstain from doing certain things - such as delivering raw MT outputs.
Outsourcing involves *real risks* and risks are best managed before they appear. However, curing the disease after it has spread is rather a poor way of doing risk management.
Furthermore, and to somewhat support René's post, I would venture to say that using (reversed) auctioning systems on translators' portals increases the risk of getting very average to poor results and partially defeats the aims of risk management.
As an example, I just saw a *legal* job (some 9,000 words) posted elsewhere, with an indicated completion time of 4 to 5 days - in fact "ASAP". As feasible as this may be without using MT, I have to wonder why the outsourcer in question, who has already posted numerous jobs here and there, seems unable to find a decent translator in their database.
So and from my point of view, GT is only the visible part of the iceberg. Without the current context (as detailed by colleagues in previous posts), GT would not make much sense.
ETA: as far as ProZ.com is concerned, and *if* one cannot avoid outsourcing through it, there is always the possibility of pre-selecting translators through either ProZ Connect, private job postings or Turnkey translations. I am really eager to know why these options seem so "deserted"...
And:
jmleger wrote:
(.../...) We are not running soviet tractor factories. (.../...)
Certainly not, but agencies also have the right and the possibility to turn down "indecent proposals" made by clients who think they know better.
(This puts an end to my input about rates.)
[Modifié le 2010-12-07 05:48 GMT]
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