| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Dirty Tactics? Peer DISAGREE and then Post your own ANSWER... (question mark added by staff) Thread poster: R. Alex Jenkins
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Atena Hensch 
New Zealand
Local time: 03:04
Persian (Farsi) to English
+ ...
| if nobody disagree with a wrong answer, how do we want to improve our skills | Sep 17, 2007 |
Jande wrote:
Sometimes a person's answer is what you think is wrong so you may have to disagree and put in what you think the correct answer is in order to prevent what you think is a wrong translation.
I agree with you Jande. if You don't disagree then you will end up having a wrong translation.
It's all a learning curve.
Cheers
Atena
[Edited at 2007-09-17 09:11]
| | | | Tim Drayton
Cyprus
Local time: 18:04
Turkish to English
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I have sometimes used the "disagree" function when I also suggest my own answer because it enables me to add a note explaining why the answer I disagree with is, in my opinion, wrong. I think such a note fits better below the answer which I am contesting as opposed to forming part of the explanation in support of my proposed solution.
| | | | | Not only do I disagree, but I do the reverse... | Sep 17, 2007 |
That is, I very often AGREE with other askers even after posting my own answer. Not particularly wise from a self-serving viewpoint, I suppose, but it does often help make the kudoz answers in general somewhat better, and that helps me too.
| | | | Nikki Graham
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:04
Spanish to English
| Contact a moderator if you suspect disagree abuse | Sep 17, 2007 |
Richard Jenkins wrote:
Some people use 'disagree' like a big dirty stick, allll over the place. Should there not be some form of distinction between common sense disagreeing with wrong answers and the liberal brandishing of disagreeing aforementioned big dirty sticks?
There is nothing wrong (IMHO) with disagreeing with an answer and then providing your own. I have done this often, I seem to remember, especially to highlight that out of all the answers provided, the one I have disagreed with is (again, IMHO) totally out of the question. I do this because it is not always obvious that by providing your own answer you disagree with the others already given. And because I would really like to try to stop the asker from using the wrong term in his/her translation.
However, I'm sure there are people who use disagrees to try to boost their chances of "winning". But surely the solution to this problem would be to draw a moderator's attention to this fact and have this individual's behaviour analysed, reprimanded, etc., rather than a rule stating that you cannot disagree and provide your own answer.
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Mats Wiman wrote:
Providing a disagree AND suggesting a better answer is exactly what good KudoZ participants do.
And indeed, I think I have suggested once or twice that this link is somehow made compulsory.
I'm not sure exactly what the order of events would be, but I don't think you should be allowed to disagree without either posting your own suggestion or agreeing to someone else's.
Which I guess makes me diameterically opposed to the original poster....
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 17:04
German to English
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| An attempt to clear up the confusion | Sep 17, 2007 |
Richard Jenkins wrote:
you should NOT use the disagree feature in order to boost your own chances of being awarded the Kudoz goodies.
I think we'd all agree with this - and I sense that this is essentially what you're getting at.
Your original post, however, was pretty unambiguous in saying that giving someone a Disagree and then posting your own answer is PER SE "dirty tactics".
But that's not what you're actually saying, right?
| | | | TonyTK
German to English
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| We don't need even more rules ... | Sep 17, 2007 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what the order of events would be, but I don't think you should be allowed to disagree without either posting your own suggestion or agreeing to someone else's.
But surely that's not the answer either, Charlie. If I'm not sure what the correct answer is but there's one answer on the board and it's garbage (a not infrequent occurrence), then I'll post a disagree. Anything else would be doing a disservice to the asker.
I've often been asked by the offended party to post my own answer [if I'm so clever etc.], a suggestion I find laughable.
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TonyTK wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what the order of events would be, but I don't think you should be allowed to disagree without either posting your own suggestion or agreeing to someone else's.
... I've often been asked by the offended party to post my own answer [if I'm so clever etc.], a suggestion I find laughable.
It's perfectly possible to know that something is the WRONG answer, without actually knowing what the RIGHT answer is.
As for the original comment, I can only add to the chorus of voices saying that of course it isn't wrong per se to disagree with someone and post your own answer. I would suggest that doing so *as a matter of course* probably warrants moderator intervention, but in my pair and fields, it doesn't generally happen.
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R. Alex Jenkins
Brazil
Local time: 12:04
Member (2006)
Portuguese to English
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TOPIC STARTER | ...additional comments... | Sep 17, 2007 |
If my original post appeared to be a little ambiguous, apologies; I don't think the Kudoz 'disagree' feature is bad or that it should be removed. It's essential.
Personally however, I don't like using this feature unless an answer is blatantly wrong, such as an answer that could perhaps cause a real world problem, like an instruction to turn a switch 'on' instead of 'off' under certain conditions, perhaps leading to damage or personal harm.
I'm sorry if my principals co... See more If my original post appeared to be a little ambiguous, apologies; I don't think the Kudoz 'disagree' feature is bad or that it should be removed. It's essential.
Personally however, I don't like using this feature unless an answer is blatantly wrong, such as an answer that could perhaps cause a real world problem, like an instruction to turn a switch 'on' instead of 'off' under certain conditions, perhaps leading to damage or personal harm.
I'm sorry if my principals could be construed as being politically misaligned, but I don't like to disagree with other posters when 'competing' (maybe 'vying' would be a better word) for Kudoz points.
I think that 'disagreeing' can become a nasty habit and I don't like it when I see certain site users disagreeing again and again on many different questions, many times during the same day. It's...a little bit too...unnecessarily aggressive and provocative and it takes away much of my enjoyment of the Kudoz/Proz/translation environment..
We are lucky; we afford ourselves the pleasure of working in a profession where the majority of people are absolutely great. I mean that sincerely - what a great group of people you are - parabens/congratulations! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Answer only when you have sufficient expertise/documentation | Sep 17, 2007 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
"boost your own chances of getting selected".
This is the very essence of the Kudoz system:
You provide the most helpful answer and then "get selected".
I disagree that "boosting your own chances of getting selected" is or should be "the very essence of the KudoZ system". The very essence of participating in KudoZ should be to contribute toward arriving at the very best translation of the queried term – to help the asker and to help ensure that the very best translation is entered in the glossary for future members to consult. Good KudoZ participants aren't primarily interested in having their answers selected.
"Your criticism is therefore directed against the whole KudoZ system and few would agree that KudoZ is a bad thing."
Why is a criticism of the shady practices of some participants "directed against the whole KudoZ system"? Richard has pointed out that some members do not have the true spirit of KudoZ in mind when they enter their disagrees. Instead, they are treating the system as a "bickersome game" and fighting to get "their answer selected" by any means possible.
Providing a disagree AND suggesting a better answer is exactly what good KudoZ participants do.
IMHO the rule 3.5 should be amended "...Backing up peer comments with references is encouraged" as are improved alternative answers. (My amended in bold)
Sure, in many cases, a disagree can be followed up with a better suggestion and often is by conscientious pros who do not do so for ulterior motives, i.e. solely to "boost their own chances of getting selected." The point of the "disagree" is that it is intended as a quality control measure to let the asker know that he or she should hesitate before selecting the answer in question. The rule as written focuses the kind of comments that are permitted: linguistic, non-personal comments.
No one should be encouraged to answer a KudoZ question simply because he or she has disagreed with an answer. It's perfectly possible for a member to know that a particular answer is complete garbage without himself having the expertise to know the correct answer.
Answering questions is a separate issue, and KudoZ rules must be carefully phrased to cover all the bases. They must pass what Ernest Hemingway called the "shit-detector test." We should encourage people to answer pro-level KudoZ questions only when they have the expertise in the field to offer a good solution or are capable doing good research.
It's perfectly possible to know that a given answer is completely out of the question without being able to propose a good answer ourselves. If I don't have sufficient expertise in the field, as a matter of ethics, I refrain from answering the question myself and wouldn't even agree with another answer in those cases, because I don't have the expertise to do so in good conscience.
| | | | | I aso agree with Tony! | Sep 17, 2007 |
TonyTK wrote:
But surely that's not the answer either, Charlie. If I'm not sure what the correct answer is but there's one answer on the board and it's garbage (a not infrequent occurrence), then I'll post a disagree. Anything else would be doing a disservice to the asker.
I've often been asked by the offended party to post my own answer [if I'm so clever etc.], a suggestion I find laughable.
Sure. My intention was merely to point out my long-standing opposition to the original poster's point.
I do appreciate that there are times when, even if you don't know what the answer is, you do know what it isn't. But there are one or 2 folks who make a fairly regular habit of posting disagrees with narry an agree or suggestion to be seen, and back in the day, that was my suggestion to counter this trend, which I felt wasn't as helpful as it might first appear.
But it doesn't apply so much now, and well, quite frankly, even before recent sad events, the chances of any changes of any kind being applied to the kudoz system are so slight that I've completely lost any real interest in discussing it, a fact not entirely unrelated to my recent decision not to renew paid membership.
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 11:04
Member (2000)
Greek to English
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| I agree with Kim | Sep 17, 2007 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
"boost your own chances of getting selected".
This is the very essence of the Kudoz system
No, Mats, absolutely not. The very essence of the KudoZ system is to provide and receive help. Boosting your own chances of getting selected is NOT the essence of KudoZ.
Kim Metzger wrote:
Sure, in many cases, a disagree can be followed up with a better suggestion and often is by conscientious pros who do not do so for ulterior motives, i.e. solely to "boost their own chances of getting selected."
o one should be encouraged to answer a KudoZ question simply because he or she has disagreed with an answer. It's perfectly possible for a member to know that a particular answer is complete garbage without himself having the expertise to know the correct answer.
[/quote]
Right. The answer provided may be grammatically or syntactically wrong; no need to be a subject-matter expert to know that it's incorrect. Or maybe we know the correct answer, we've seen it or used it before, but can't remember it at that particular moment. We should still disagree to let the asker know that the answer provided is not acceptable.
Richard, were you thinking of rule 3.6? "No attempt may be made to influence others' decisions. Encouraging an asker to choose one's own suggested translation, or peers to agree with one's own answers and/or disagree with answers provided by others, is prohibited."
Maria
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R. Alex Jenkins
Brazil
Local time: 12:04
Member (2006)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Richard, were you thinking of rule 3.6? "No attempt may be made to influence others' decisions. Encouraging an asker to choose one's own suggested translation, or peers to agree with one's own answers and/or disagree with answers provided by others, is prohibited."
Yes, I think that's the rule (but slightly clumsily written I think) ;/
I may have misread it.
What it actually says is that it's OK to answer and disagree at the same time. But it's NOT OK to try and PERSUADE others to agree with your own answer or disagree with another peer's answer.
Thanks for clearing this up Maria
| | | | Yaotl Altan
Mexico
Local time: 09:04
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
+ ...
It's dirty when they laugh at the dictionary you are using or the references used to support your answer. If it's a systematic action, of course it's dirty. I think it's lack of self-esteem and an urgent need for Kudoz!
On the other hand, I gladly accept these disagrees if the other answers are better than mine.
| | | | Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 17:04
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | A disagree IMHO demands a suggestion of your own. | Sep 17, 2007 |
TonyTK wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what the order of events would be, but I don't think you should be allowed to disagree without either posting your own suggestion or agreeing to someone else's.
But surely that's not the answer either, Charlie. If I'm not sure what the correct answer is but there's one answer on the board and it's garbage (a not infrequent occurrence), then I'll post a disagree. Anything else would be doing a disservice to the asker. I've often been asked by the offended party to post my own answer [if I'm so clever etc.], a suggestion I find laughable.
I entirely agrre with Charlie Bavington.
A disagree without the obligation to offer your own suggestion invites abuse and does not necessarily offer any help to the asker but rather often confusion.
"Laughable" is IMHO to object to that obligation.
Mats
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