| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Enhancement of the KudoZ system by discouraging questions without context - A proposal Thread poster: Ángel Domínguez
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| "Help" is the key word | Jul 3, 2008 |
The KudoZ glossary is a very relevant area of the site and a great resource for translators. However, it is not the main objective of KudoZ.
The main objective of the KudoZ system is to provide those in need of translation assistance with access to timely help.
This means that when there is a conflict between these two worthy objectives, the "help" component is more relevant than the "reference" component.
This is a basic principle of KudoZ and of ProZ.co... See more The KudoZ glossary is a very relevant area of the site and a great resource for translators. However, it is not the main objective of KudoZ.
The main objective of the KudoZ system is to provide those in need of translation assistance with access to timely help.
This means that when there is a conflict between these two worthy objectives, the "help" component is more relevant than the "reference" component.
This is a basic principle of KudoZ and of ProZ.com. I am not quoting rules but making reference to principles that are basic to the site.
To find out about the principles on which the site has been built and underlie the ProZ.com culture please have a look at the Sixteen cornerstones of ProZ.com.
The fact that helping the askers is the focus of the current KudoZ system does not mean that quality and the glossary are irrelevant. There is important work being currently done in these directions that should make a difference in the near future.
Regards
Enrique
PS: Before joining ProZ.com staff I had another profile and I had my share of KudoZ points. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andrea Riffo 
Chile
Local time: 01:27
English to Spanish
+ ...
I think that Angel's sugestion, paired with Pablo's idea, is one of the best ones I've read in quite a while.
Juan Jacob wrote:
And I'm surprised to know that some rules aren't really rules, and other, yes, and enforceable.
Are you really?
Best
Andrea
| | | | | "Timely help"... Ok, but it must be true help | Jul 4, 2008 |
Enrique wrote:
The main objective of the KudoZ system is to provide those in need of translation assistance with access to timely help.
But Enrique, exactly that is my point, and the point of most frequent answerers: timely help. As I explained with my example of a doctor, an unthought aspirine might alleviate a pain in the arm, and in that sense it is "timely", but is it really "help"? "No way josé."
Do you prefer the aspirine, or do you prefer a better assessment of your discomfort, at the cost of spending 1 minute answering a couple of doctor's questions?
Spending 1 minute (it does not take any longer) explaining the question and providing more context will not keep anybody from receiving "timely help". In fact, it would expedite the help enormously, as the answers would be definite, specific ones in less time.
| | | | | "In the near future".... not good enough | Jul 4, 2008 |
Enrique wrote:
The fact that helping the askers is the focus of the current KudoZ system does not mean that quality and the glossary are irrelevant. There is important work being currently done in these directions that should make a difference in the near future.
Enrique, most of the people who have shown their interest in a context request feature in this forum:
- Have been answering questions for many years
- Are responsible for a big chunk of the "KudoZ archives of over 1 million terms" used as a value proposal of the service
- Have suffered personal attacks over email for proposing answers which, had the asker added the context, would have been completely evident from the start
- Are tired of waiting for improvements "in the near future"...
I have been answering questions for 7 years and no improvement was made in the sense of promoting better questions. Yet the share of unregistered askers getting free and timely "help" at the cost of registered answerer's nerves keeps increasing.
Sorry for being rude, but: For the improvements "in the near future", you surely want to take into account the opinion of the people who make your "timely help" possible?
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| Are we speaking the same language? | Jul 4, 2008 |
Enrique wrote: To find out about the principles on which the site has been built and underlie the ProZ.com culture please have a look at the Sixteen cornerstones of ProZ.com.
I start to have a feeling that we might not be speaking the same language here Enrique. You boast that Proz is directing Kudoz in the direction of the "Sixteen cornerstones", but my interpretation of the "cornerstones" is a different one:
3. The ProZ.com team has a clear mission. The ProZ.com team works to "provide tools and opportunities that translators, translation companies, and others in the language industry use to (1) network, (2) expand their businesses, (3) improve their work, and (4) have more fun."
How can a bad question and a quick, risky answer "improve the work" of a translator? It will only help him/her to bypass the use of a dictionary and to choose a translation at random. It will not really improve work much... :-/
4. Relationships are based on mutual respect, fairness and professionalism.
Oh really? Is asking without context, without an explanation, without a minimum courtesy and no reaction to our questions really "mutual respect" and "professionalism"? I find this august-sounding statement so funny in the context of today's Kudoz questions!
11. Site staff members focus their efforts on serving members first and foremost.
OK, that is nice. Thank you! Please tell us how should we frequent answerers (generally members) formally request for a context request feature to be included to improve the behaviour of non-member cheeky askers. Do we send a letter? An email? To whom? Thanks in advance!
14. The ProZ.com community believes in reuse. Forum posts, KudoZ questions, etc., are archived, and site users are encouraged to check for previous solutions before going to the community for assistance.
Nice. Then let's do something to improve the Kudoz archives in the long run, or you'll be encouraging people to use a resource that cannot be trusted. I am sure Proz's goal is not to mislead people in their translation work? Either Kudoz is improved, or you should stop encouraging people to use the archives...
16. We have only just begun. t we believe there is much more we can do together in the future.[/quote]
I believe that too and I am happy that this is the spirit of Proz. Let's make a brighter future! That's precisely what we are talking about here: a tiny feature that should not take long to develop and which will dramatically improve the quality of questions and answers. Thanks for listening!
| | | | Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 23:27
English to Spanish
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In memoriam
It's strange I did not find this discussion until now, but I am glad to see so many people concerned about CONTEXT.
It takes all kinds to make a world, and we see them right here on the Net. All I can say is that there are many people who want to learn and there are also many who could care less, and natural selection shall eventually determine the survival of the fittest.
I do not know what the answer is, but I will continue to ask for CONTEXT when required, and I hope... See more It's strange I did not find this discussion until now, but I am glad to see so many people concerned about CONTEXT.
It takes all kinds to make a world, and we see them right here on the Net. All I can say is that there are many people who want to learn and there are also many who could care less, and natural selection shall eventually determine the survival of the fittest.
I do not know what the answer is, but I will continue to ask for CONTEXT when required, and I hope the rest of you will do the same. ▲ Collapse
| | | | gfe
Local time: 07:27
English to Italian
+ ...
| A poor person's self-made button | Jul 4, 2008 |
We have used to some effect a simple device, the "Flag or filter this asker" option.
The logic is: context-empty and variously defective questions seem to be a specialty of easily identifiable askers. Eye no sees, heart no pains, as my good friend said.
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 07:27
French to English
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| definitively disillusioned | Jul 4, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote
"Cross your heart: Haven't you all frequent answerers decided many times to forget about Proz.com completely and unsubscribe, just because of the frustration caused by poorly managed questions and answers? After a while "recovering from our wounds" we eventually come back for more, just because we enjoy helping other people."
How right he is. The only problem is that, since I first discovered this site some 7 or 8 years ago, droves of good peopl... See more Tomás Cano Binder wrote
"Cross your heart: Haven't you all frequent answerers decided many times to forget about Proz.com completely and unsubscribe, just because of the frustration caused by poorly managed questions and answers? After a while "recovering from our wounds" we eventually come back for more, just because we enjoy helping other people."
How right he is. The only problem is that, since I first discovered this site some 7 or 8 years ago, droves of good people have left/been driven away/been banned (and, please, nobody come back and tell me that they were banned for good reason because they contravened the regulations or whatever - maybe they did but the whole point of regulations is that they should be applied intelligently and with discretion and NOT enforced against all good sense.... and if anyone mentions the famous rule that is ALWAYS applied when all other rules suddenly become optional, I shall SCREAM)
In fact, I have been on the brink of removing my profile several times but have been persuaded to pull back more than once on the grounds that it is better to fight from within. Frankly, the only reason I have stayed so far is that I work in several language pairs and in some of them the moderators use their common sense, do not rap people over the knuckles for minor misdemeanours, especially when they see that the community spirit is good, and the exchanges are usually among true pros with "real" questions (not wasting other people's time - and I've been in the business for decades and - yes - I am able to judge).
For French-English (and vice-versa) however, I too could produce a long list of good names that have disappeared. And also a list of new names that have "amateur" running right through them like Brighton rock..... This seems to be the way things are heading.
Which is why, this time, I have really had enough but I'm not going quietly.
I'm not sure whether the suggestion mooted at the start of this thread is the perfect answer but to Enrique I would say: wake up - it is time you listened to the community of translators/interpreters : some of them do know what they are talking about. They are not children. Do not dismiss their suggestions and concerns out of hand. The site needs good contributors. Don't drive them ALL away.
And please, do not refuse to publish this post - if so I shall have to send the same message to all those who have contributed to this thread personally by email - and I will.... ▲ Collapse
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| We would filter everybody at some stage... | Jul 4, 2008 |
gfe wrote:
We have used to some effect a simple device, the "Flag or filter this asker" option.
The logic is: context-empty and variously defective questions seem to be a specialty of easily identifiable askers. Eye no sees, heart no pains, as my good friend said.
Over the last month I have filtered some 35 people. But bad questions keep rolling in. And filtering someone does not educate the person. My experience is that, once you tell them about the lack of information, most people react positively. Filtering is good for severe cases, but does not solve the problem at all.
If someone is littering a public garden right in front of your eyes, do you look to the other side and think it is not happening, or do you ask this person to be more careful? When you return to this garden later, the litter will be still there! Let's fix it folks!
| | | | | I can only agree | Jul 4, 2008 |
I'm not sure that blocking the question until more context is provided is the right thing to do. I remember one recent question where there was a chorus of voices asking for more context on a highly technical term, and one answerer who was clearly experienced in that field who had no problem in answering it as it stood with what was obviously the right answer.
Still, I agree that something needs to be done - it seems to me that in the quest... See more I'm not sure that blocking the question until more context is provided is the right thing to do. I remember one recent question where there was a chorus of voices asking for more context on a highly technical term, and one answerer who was clearly experienced in that field who had no problem in answering it as it stood with what was obviously the right answer.
Still, I agree that something needs to be done - it seems to me that in the quest to increase site traffic, the number of casual visitors asking questions with no context (and all too often posted in the monolingual English section when they want nothing of the sort) has increased exponentially, and nothing has been done to try to improve the situation despite the numerous requests. I can't help but feel that the greater the site traffic, the lower the overall professionalism of askers, answerers and the site as a whole. Certainly some of the people I most respected when I joined - including at least one moderator - have simply bailed out and removed their profiles. I still feel the site has a lot to offer, but the Kudoz section at least is less and less worthy of the moniker "Proz" with every day that passes. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jacana54 (X)
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
| I agree with Angel's suggestion | Jul 4, 2008 |
and also with what has been said of the importance of the glossary.
Lucía
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We agree on several points:
Quality is important.
Askers should provide enough context to help answerers better understand their terminology needs.
The glossary is very important and it is a great resource, and ideally good questions should consistently produce great glossary entries.
But:
The primary objective of KudoZ is providing term help to the askers, so in case of conflict between priorities "help" is... See more We agree on several points:
Quality is important.
Askers should provide enough context to help answerers better understand their terminology needs.
The glossary is very important and it is a great resource, and ideally good questions should consistently produce great glossary entries.
But:
The primary objective of KudoZ is providing term help to the askers, so in case of conflict between priorities "help" is the most relevant concept.
In particular, any proposal aiming to prevent askers from getting term help is not likely to be implemented. This applies to the option suggested in this thread, that amounts to blocking the question until its quality is deemed good enough by others.
Deleting rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.1#2.1 has been evaluated, but it was decided to keep it because it was considered to be good guideline.
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
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Angel Dominguez wrote:
that would discourage people from posting questions without a single trace of context.
would be to make it mandatory for the description field to contain a certain number of characters (non-space characters, maybe).
I have suggested this before.
Obviously, people could get round it by posting no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context no context as have just done but that would show a certain mindset that would, perhaps, discourage answerers.
Just an idea
| | | | | You actually considered ELIMINATING the one "rule" that almost all answerers want enforced?! | Jul 4, 2008 |
Enrique wrote: The primary objective of KudoZ is providing term help to the askers, so in case of conflict between priorities "help" is the most relevant concept.
In particular, any proposal aiming to prevent askers from getting term help is not likely to be implemented. This applies to the option suggested in this thread, that amounts to blocking the question until its quality is deemed good enough by others.
Deleting rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.1#2.1 has been evaluated, but it was decided to keep it because it was considered to be good guideline.
Regards,
Enrique
Now I am stupefied.
And forgive me for putting it so bluntly Enrique, but I've tried saying it gently and it's fallen on deaf ears... from my point of view the primary objective of Kudoz does not seem to be providing help to askers, but simply to increase site traffic. And you (the site, not you personally) are doing this at your own peril, as the net effect is to alienate and drive away the very people you should be trying your utmost to keep - the professionals.
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