| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Why do they often want native speakers? Thread poster: Ruxi
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bergazy 
Croatia
Local time: 07:30
Croatian to Italian
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| Just wait and see | Apr 7, 2004 |
Uldis Liepkalns wrote: And how many of them are here on ProZ, among us, by your estimate? Uldis, just wondering 
I really can't know what future will bring.
But among 30 000 highly qualified and skilled individuals somebody actually is (or will be)brave and talented enough to undertake successfully such a mission.
I have faith in my colleagues.
| | | | Kevin Fulton
United States
Local time: 01:30
German to English
| A screening device | Apr 7, 2004 |
If I may return to the original topic ...
As Trudy Peters pointed out, being a native speaker of a language does not automatically qualify one as a translator. Marc Prior wisely noted that a prime qualification is the ability to write clearly and concisely to a high standard.
As we all know, there are a lot of people who really shouldn't be translating, due to lack of expertise, faulty linquistic ability or general lack of aptitude. The native speaker requirement is me... See more If I may return to the original topic ...
As Trudy Peters pointed out, being a native speaker of a language does not automatically qualify one as a translator. Marc Prior wisely noted that a prime qualification is the ability to write clearly and concisely to a high standard.
As we all know, there are a lot of people who really shouldn't be translating, due to lack of expertise, faulty linquistic ability or general lack of aptitude. The native speaker requirement is merely one way to reduce the number of obviously unqualified job applicants. It does not mean that the pool of remaining applicants are necessarily suitable for a given job.
I put this into the same category as requiring the use of specific software (including CAT tools) or membership in some form of translators association. The client is free to establish criteria that match his/her idea of a suitable translator.
Kevin ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Proofreaders are used | Apr 8, 2004 |
Ruxi wrote:
One remark: nobody can afford to have proof-readers for every piece of work,most of the people trust a translator and the best solution would be a sample test.
It is the only way to make sure one is suitable for your work.
Thank you,
Ruxi
Ruxi,
As a translation agency owner I have to disagree with you. To give you an example: we do utilize proofreaders for every single job we accept. Reason being: to ensure that the quality is there, that the terminology is consistant, that nothing got missed and to make sure that the text flows nicely.
Native translators that are surrounded by the language that they translate into usually have an easier time formulating sentences nicely, so that the translated text does not "show signs" of having been translated. That is not to say that some non-native translators can do an exceptionally nice job translating too. I just think that it might be less of an effort for a native speaker to do so.
Best regards,
Kerstin
| | | | Cristiana Coblis
Romania
Local time: 08:30
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
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| adapt to your local market | Apr 8, 2004 |
Hi again Ruxi.
I would consider a course in translation and a certification in your country of residence. Of course, this is not compulsory, but it helps. Also, try to contact associations and colleague translators in your city (it's not very important what language they translate into) for guidance. Try to adapt and find your place on the local market.
I know for a fact that it is very difficult to find a minute's peace and rest as a native Romanian translator into Romanian. Also, ... See more Hi again Ruxi.
I would consider a course in translation and a certification in your country of residence. Of course, this is not compulsory, but it helps. Also, try to contact associations and colleague translators in your city (it's not very important what language they translate into) for guidance. Try to adapt and find your place on the local market.
I know for a fact that it is very difficult to find a minute's peace and rest as a native Romanian translator into Romanian. Also, I know that it is not that easy to translate into Romanian, many native people perform interesting translations in their own languages. Sometimes, you can find it difficult to express your own thoughts in your own language, let along recreate somebody else's ideas. You will find that there are more clients out there that would hire you to translate into Romanian than there are that would consider you for another language.
You have many strong points to take into account: you have a daily contact with the source language and a native knowledge for your target language. It is perfect for a translator. Plus, you will find that competition for Romanian is less fierce than for other languages.
I am absolutely sure that if you play your cards right, you will find yourself in the same situation (looking for a free hour in your agenda) in just a few months, maximum a year.
Try to find clients for your skills and abilities, not for those of others ▲ Collapse
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| So what... "Native means nothing" | Apr 12, 2004 |
Here is my thought on this subject...
I find it rather silly that one would judge the relationship of one's native language to one's ability to negotiate in a language that may not be native to one's self!
So you understand me, being a linguistic is much more than refining your native language skill's. For being born into a certain language does not mean in any way that your understanding of that language will be as refined as one born into another language.
... See more Here is my thought on this subject...
I find it rather silly that one would judge the relationship of one's native language to one's ability to negotiate in a language that may not be native to one's self!
So you understand me, being a linguistic is much more than refining your native language skill's. For being born into a certain language does not mean in any way that your understanding of that language will be as refined as one born into another language.
I have had the great pleasure of seeing and experiencing this first hand on many different occasions! On one occasion, while studying Spanish I went to Spain for a year to refine my language skill's, I found at the university level, language was unbelievable corrupt, yes that may be a very harsh word but it is what I feel I had experienced. It's like my grandfathers favorite saying... "From China came spaghetti, but Italians refined it!" The expression should not be taken literally, for it is purely symbolic in it's nature. Translated... "Being born of, is not the same as being well versed in"
Fataqui ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The traditional Romanian approach of English translations | Apr 12, 2004 |
As a Romanian translator who lived mostly in Romania, I think that I could explain a little more about why Ruxi's question may not receive the obvious answer within the translation market in this country.
First of all, no "natives should only translate to their language" principle exists here. The reasons used to be practical - Romanian borders have been closed until 1989. Only Romanian translators were available in all pairs. Many of them are doing English translations today as wel... See more As a Romanian translator who lived mostly in Romania, I think that I could explain a little more about why Ruxi's question may not receive the obvious answer within the translation market in this country.
First of all, no "natives should only translate to their language" principle exists here. The reasons used to be practical - Romanian borders have been closed until 1989. Only Romanian translators were available in all pairs. Many of them are doing English translations today as well (and are not very happy about letting half of their workload go).
The second reason is that there are very few English natives who translate to Romanian.
I was looking to find an English native with whom to work and posted a potential project on ProZ; only Romanian natives have responded.
The last reason is that the "native speaker" principle is just not heared of. I first read about it on ProZ, and so have most of the Romanian translators here, I suppose. I was a MA student in Translation when I read this on ProZ - and now I believe that the said principle is unfamiliar to translation professors in Romania. We learned how to translate into and from Romanian, and no difference was made between the two.
The situation now is that translation from Romanian to English is done almost only by Romanian natives (I have read recently some EU drug-related reviews poorly translated to English by a Romanian native).
This is why I find it natural for Ruxi to ask why she shouldn't translate into another language now that she lives in another country, since she could do that while living in Romania.
I suppose that working in pairs (one source language and one target language native) would be a solution to consider; although I do have a good mastery of Romanian, I don't always understand highly idiomatic English and I think that more can be learned from another translator than from a good dictionary.
I believe the native English speaker who might need to translate from Romanian (is there any?) would find him/herself in the same position. Or actually in a worse one, because Romanian resources are scarce, some of the well-known dictionaries are of poor quality (the good ones are about 30 years old) and Romanian is a highly flexional language.
There are about 27 million Romanian speakers all over the world - a virtually empty market and lots of potential clients.
Are things the same in other Eastern European languages > English pairs as well? What do you know about this?
Do you have any experience with working in pairs? Do you think it may be a good idea?
Thanks,
Veronica
[Edited at 2004-04-12 00:25]
[Edited at 2004-04-12 01:14]
[Edited at 2004-04-12 01:16] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ruxi
German to Romanian
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TOPIC STARTER | Thank you Veronica and all of you... | Apr 13, 2004 |
It is an interesting discussion and all of you are right.
Then, as I could see on this site, there is another problem regarding "native language".
It is still questionable.
According to the proz.com rules one has to proof his mother language in many cases.Why and how?
Also there is in many cases a question of the way mother language should be determinated.
First of all there are languages which still have an unclear status.
I have seen here Moldawian listed. I... See more It is an interesting discussion and all of you are right.
Then, as I could see on this site, there is another problem regarding "native language".
It is still questionable.
According to the proz.com rules one has to proof his mother language in many cases.Why and how?
Also there is in many cases a question of the way mother language should be determinated.
First of all there are languages which still have an unclear status.
I have seen here Moldawian listed. I must tell you there is a question about it.
My father has been born in Moldawia which today is another country and separated from Romania.
There are differences in the languages, it is kind of dialect, but my father and his relatives always considered theirselves as Romanian speaking Romanian.
The dialect is also used in the Eastern part of Romania, but here it is still called Romanian.
Now I ask you which is the mother-tongue of my father?
Then my mother has another mother-language (Russian) but never used it officially.
It seems she has two mother-languages?
What about me? Which of this languages is my mother-tongue?
According to many people, Romanian,as this is the language I spoke from the day I started to.
According to the definition, I should have other two mother-tongues from my parents.
According to me my mother-language is Romanian, I know it the best.
On the other side, more than the languages I know from my parents I know German. I've learned it at 5, I was allways connected to this language.
Finally I live in Germany and use it all the time and I speak it home with my husband.
So why should I not translate German-English or vice-versa?
There are many opinions pro and against "native-speaker" but there are also so many things to consider.
Things are not so easy as they seem.
Many people make a great difference between UK-English and US-English.
I would like to know what you consider your mother language to be: English or American?
The difference is very clear when speaking, but they both have the same roots - English(UK).
Two languages suddenly?
The same with German and it's dialects in Germany and other countries (Austria and Switzerland)a.s.o (Spanish and French all over the world).
It is difficult to find a translator, native speaker of that language in that point of the world you want.
Imagine how many new languages suddenly appeared from the ex-Yugoslawia, ex.USSR a.s.o. and all suddenly different, after they spoke so many years one common language.
Why is this and how can you tell somebody from the USSR you can not translate this because you are not Ukraine native-speaker,or Russian.
And there are so many examples.
One can make a good translation when he really knows good both origin and target language and gives the right sense to the document.
Even a native speaker does not know all the idioms, dialects and regionalisms of his own language,not to mention the different fields.
Thank you all,
Ruxi ▲ Collapse
| | | | Margarita Palatnik (X)
Local time: 02:30
Spanish to English
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| Irina is so right! | Jul 8, 2004 |
Yes, many non-natives produce atrocious or plain mediocre translations, but as usual, there are plenty of exceptions.
My father's best friend publishes books and articles (his own writing, his own translation) in Bulgarian, English, German and Spanish, and I can vouch for the nuanced, sophisticated nature of his English and Spanish copy (his third and fourth languages, respectively). And lets not forget Joseph Conrad.
I am a native of Uruguay, educated at a British scho... See more Yes, many non-natives produce atrocious or plain mediocre translations, but as usual, there are plenty of exceptions.
My father's best friend publishes books and articles (his own writing, his own translation) in Bulgarian, English, German and Spanish, and I can vouch for the nuanced, sophisticated nature of his English and Spanish copy (his third and fourth languages, respectively). And lets not forget Joseph Conrad.
I am a native of Uruguay, educated at a British school in Uruguay (from kindergarden on). However, I started my journalism career in English, at the age of 26, and received praise from my readers for my style as much as for the content of my stories. My editors never once questioned my English.
At 34, I added Portuguese as a working language. I edited articles in Portuguese, and translated my own stories (written originally in English, it comes more naturally to me) into Portuguese, watching the screen while one of the reporters working for me would edit my copy. I just don't do translations into Portuguese, because I find it a waste of money: I'm too slow.
While attending courses towards my Certificate in Translation at NYU, often I was the only non-native in the class (at the time they didn't offer En>Sp) and as Marian can attest, in the financial courses, I earned more kudoz than any native speaker, this in the context of an industry I had never worked in, while many of my peers had jobs in banking or finance at the time. (My explanation at the time was "I've been reading The Economist since high-school.")
Of course we need to polish our writing skills, learn our idioms, master our prepositions, and have someone else check our copy (regardless of whether we are natives or not) but my belief is that reading comprehension (the lack thereof) is the greatest cause of poor or plain wrong translations. I have edited dozens of documents translated by native-speakers, written in beautiful prose, and ridden with serious reading comprehension errors. Missed nuances, you could say... ▲ Collapse
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Cristiana Coblis
Romania
Local time: 08:30
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
+ ...
| native speaker exception | Jul 8, 2004 |
I think all literature on translation/translation professionals considers the issue of a native translator that moved and lived for some years in another country (residence country). Clients will consider such a translator a very good candidate for translations from his mother tongue into the language of the residence country, especially in some projects where you have to have good knowledge of local civilization and culture (administration, structures, etc) that are daily information for a resi... See more I think all literature on translation/translation professionals considers the issue of a native translator that moved and lived for some years in another country (residence country). Clients will consider such a translator a very good candidate for translations from his mother tongue into the language of the residence country, especially in some projects where you have to have good knowledge of local civilization and culture (administration, structures, etc) that are daily information for a resident, but are not so obvious for a person residing in another country.
IMHO, it is circumstantial, it very much depends on the job and on the client.
HTH,
Cristina ▲ Collapse
| | | | ArnieT
Ukraine
Local time: 08:30
Russian to English
+ ...
| Because only native speakers can do a good job | Aug 7, 2004 |
Dear Ruxi:
You said it -- the important thing is to know the language. And unless you a a native speaker of the target language, it's very unlikely you can do a good translation even if your knowledge of its grammar and vocabulary can be superb. Which cannot be said of yours with respect to English. There are several mistakes in you post, not even counting misused/missing articles.
Truly.
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 07:30
Multiplelanguages
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| mother tongue in African countries | Dec 10, 2004 |
valyn wrote:
although i do agree that people translate better into their native language
i wonder what to say about african translators whose mother tongue is often different from their official first language (from colonialism. as a matter of fact, they are brought up talking and learning both the african language which is the native language of their tribe and culture and what is considered to be their first language which is the official language
It's a bit more complicated that this. I have African friends who grew up in Africa up through some university studies, whose mother and/or father speak native tribal tongues, and yet these friends speak with their brothers and sisters in French at home. There is also the issue of significant linguistic variation within a same national language. For example, the version of the Baoule language spoken in Western Cote d'Ivoire/Ivory Coast is so different from the Baoule spoken in the Eastern part, that these friends speak the people in the other parts in French in order to communicate with them.
This is common in several Western African countries. Especially in those counties that have between 400-800 national languages in the countries. The high level of linguistic diversity has led them to use the official language coming from colonization as a means of communication, and many of them master it starting at age 6 onward.
This is not necessarily the case in all contexts, but I've seen several instances of it.
Jeff
http://www.geocities.com/creolelangs/
[Edited at 2004-12-29 12:56]
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