| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Why do they often want native speakers? Thread poster: Ruxi
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| What natives can do | Apr 5, 2004 |
Trudy Peters wrote:
Native speakers do NOT necessarily do a better job!
Trudy is of course quite right - being a native speaker does not automatically mean you are going to do a good job. Much more is needed:
Any translator has to be able to write clear (dare I say beautiful) correct prose, which automatically cuts out a significant proportion of the native speaker population. He/she also has to fully understand the source text (which cuts out most of the rest, leaving just the pros).
Some Italian people tell me my translations into Italian are better than theirs, but I've never had an Italian professional translator say that!
I can do half-decent translations into Italian because I understand the process of translation and my Italian is almost native speaker standard with a very good vocabulary, such that I often write political documents used and discussed in Italian universities directly in Italian.
However, on the rare occasion when I do agree to do a translation into Italian I specify that it should not be published and should be read by a small number of people, because my Italian will never be as good as my English.
Apart from anything else, it also takes me twice as long to provide what I regard as a fairly shoddy piece of work, and I wouldn't be able to raise a family on that sort of money. Why damage my reputation by entering into competition with people who have a head start on me ? I will never be in their league.
| | | | | As a practical matter, I recommend you only translate into your own native language(s) | Apr 5, 2004 |
Ruxi wrote:
... It must be another reason, otherwise there should be a general rule "only native speakers" and not only for some cases.
You were wise to ask (some people do not). In fact, it is a general rule. Even in cases when the outsourcer does not explicitly state it, you may assume that the outsourcer would prefer, or even require, a translator working into his or her native language.
Several experienced people have speculated in this thread on reasons why outsourcers require native translators. But in the end, the reasons do not matter all that much. For better or for worse, this is the situation and if you want to be successful as a translator, I advise that you work only into your native language(s).
| | | | | There is another reason - time and effort | Apr 5, 2004 |
Professionally, I never translate into a language which is not my native tongue. However, and like all of us, I consider myself fluent in English and able to communicate in most situations.
This has led me to help others (friends from outside the translation world, mostly) to communicate in English. I have helped writing letters and e-mails, reviewed University papers, made summaries, etc. Ok, I could do that- we all can. However, it was painfully long. While in my native language ... See more Professionally, I never translate into a language which is not my native tongue. However, and like all of us, I consider myself fluent in English and able to communicate in most situations.
This has led me to help others (friends from outside the translation world, mostly) to communicate in English. I have helped writing letters and e-mails, reviewed University papers, made summaries, etc. Ok, I could do that- we all can. However, it was painfully long. While in my native language words come together easily and naturally, in English I have to check absolutely everything, because I don't know which preposition goes with.. Am not sure about the usage of this or that verb..
I imagine I am 'capable' of doing a small translation into English and coming up with a correct, good-quality text. But how long would it take me? How many phone calls to English-speaking friends? How much panic over prepositions? And wouldn't all this reflect on the text and sound limited, constricted?
By the way, I have written this posting in 5 minutes (and without panicking ) How many miscollocations can you find? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lia Fail (X) 
Spain
Local time: 07:42
Spanish to English
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| reply to Irene | Apr 5, 2004 |
As Ian pointed out, interpretation is a completely different profession from translation. If I wanted an interpreter I would choose a bi-lingual. But for a translation I would choose only a native - except where I had little to no choice and the non-native had 1) excellent target language 2) translation experience 3) field expertise (e.g. a doctor, etc).
On the same principle, I would not translate into a language that was not my native language.
"During my interpret... See more As Ian pointed out, interpretation is a completely different profession from translation. If I wanted an interpreter I would choose a bi-lingual. But for a translation I would choose only a native - except where I had little to no choice and the non-native had 1) excellent target language 2) translation experience 3) field expertise (e.g. a doctor, etc).
On the same principle, I would not translate into a language that was not my native language.
"During my interpretation assignments there were instances when an American speaker would turn to me in search of a right word."
I often do not have the exact word on the tip of my tongue but the difference between a non-native and me is that I can go to a thesaurus and will instantly recognise the 'right word' for the 'right context', the right collocation. F
For example, these are all synonyms or close synonyms or related concepts for the adjective LONG meaning 'extended' (from www.thesaurus.com).
Certain words collocate with 'relationship', or with 'hall', or with 'negotiations', or with 'illness' and they cannot be used interchangeably, yet the meaning is similar. But it's difficult for a non-native to have this level of knowledge of a language:
continued, deep, distant, drawn out, elongate, elongated, enduring, enlarged, expanded, extensive, far-off, far-reaching, faraway, gangling, great, high, king-size, lanky, lasting, lengthened, lengthy, lingering, lofty, longish, outstretched, prolonged, protracted, rangy, remote, running, spread out, spun out, stretch, stretched, stretching, stringy, sustained, tall, towering
"does this mean for you that "incorrect language" is a built-in feature of somebody who has been born around different language?"
If you mean, am I saying that only natives translate correctly, absolutely not. Many natives translate badly, even write or speak badly. But the probabilities of a native translating correctly are, on the face of it, far higher than the probabilities of a non-native translating correctly. I have seen many bad translations by natives, and a handful of reasonably good ones by non-natives. And I have had to correct non-natives, and it's heartbreaking work, because a rewritten text is never as good as one that has been translated correctly from the outset).
[Edited at 2004-04-05 17:03] ▲ Collapse
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AllisonK (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 07:42
Dutch to English
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| couldn't agree with you more | Apr 5, 2004 |
Why damage my reputation by entering into competition with people who have a head start on me ? I will never be in their league.
It's a shame more people in this country do not follow the advice inherent in this statement.........
I've always understood the number one requirement of a good (and wise) translator to be someone who translates exclusively into their native language. The rest is a matter of literary talent, grammatical skill and the like.
| | | | | This is what I wrote in another thread dealing with the same subject | Apr 5, 2004 |
More often than not it is a case of blind application of specifications.
As I am typing these words, I cannot escape the feeling of déjà vu. The question of native speaker has come up time and again and more often than not I have given my input. One more posting from me should not hurt.
The question of native speaker is relevant only in the case of literary translations or other translations where the language style plays a big part. Here, there can be no two opinions. On... See more More often than not it is a case of blind application of specifications.
As I am typing these words, I cannot escape the feeling of déjà vu. The question of native speaker has come up time and again and more often than not I have given my input. One more posting from me should not hurt.
The question of native speaker is relevant only in the case of literary translations or other translations where the language style plays a big part. Here, there can be no two opinions. Only a native speaker will do the trick.
But the problem becomes ridiculous in case of purely engineering or other technical texts, where the end users are technical people, who are more worried about the contents and not the style of language. For that matter, the writers of such technical texts may themselves not be in the top league in their languages. One posting by a ProZ.com member living in Japan (Alain Cote, I think) mentioned about his struggling with an English text written by a Japanese fellow, who was convinced that he (the Japanese) was a good English writer. The translator was desperately trying to view the screen from different angles, whereupon his wife happening to pass by casually diagnosed his problem as described above. By the way that posting was about woman's intuition. Now when such a text, say an English text written by an Indian and influenced by his mother tongue, say Tamil, is to be translated into French, do you think that a French native speaker will be better in translating it? I think not. Here the idea of a native translator is made to stand on its head. A Tamil translator knowing good French will be best suited for this job. Going one step further, who is better placed to translate from Tamil into French?
As I have already mentioned time and again, it is good that I did not know all these restrictions at the time of starting my career 25 years ago. By the time I was aware of this problem, I had already done it and am not worse off. With India entering into the international arena, we are asked to do more and more reverse translations away from English. And that is good for us.
A typical Indian client will not like to take the trouble of approaching a non-English native speaker for translating away from English for 3 very good reasons. One is the rate. Foreigner costs more. Second is foreign currency. Foreigners will not care to be paid in rupees. Third is the standard of the original English text written by a local writer. It will be Indian English and not the Queen's English. Correct but will be alien to a Britisher or an American and almost incomprehensible for a German or a Frenchman.
In view of the above, I feel that the insistence on native speaker in all cases is just ridiculous.
In my Proz.com profile, I have not entered language pairs, where English is the source language. But here in India I accept such assignments and I charge a little more than is the case for translations into English but even then the client finds my rates competitive.
Regards,
N.Raghavan ▲ Collapse
| | | | cebice
United States
Local time: 00:42
English to Spanish
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| Totally Agree | Apr 5, 2004 |
Marie Leca wrote:
To be a translator, you need to have an excellent command of the source language - not near-native, not native, but native-with-excellent-writing-skills.
The subject discussed here is not about native people with bad writing style, but about the job of a translator. Translation is a bit more than replacing a word by another, otherwise, who would really eed us? Cultural nuances and subtleties of a language cannot be acquired that easily. You need a feel for what sounds right, whether a term can be seen as offensive or prejorative etc.
I've been living in English speaking countries for 12 years now, but I would never take an assignment into English.
[/quote]
The point here is that to be a translator one must have the writing skills in his native language and be 100% fluent in the other language.
| | | | Ruxi
German to Romanian
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TOPIC STARTER | Thank you all | Apr 5, 2004 |
Thank you all for your kind answers.
I am now totally down-hearted.You are trying to show me how difficult it is to know more languages and not to be able to use them.
I know very well what a good translator is supposed to know and do.
There are two general problems:
In my own country I had a lot of work in the translation field.
Now I live in another country where my mother-tongue is not needed and where I am supposed to adapt myself and work also with other langua... See more Thank you all for your kind answers.
I am now totally down-hearted.You are trying to show me how difficult it is to know more languages and not to be able to use them.
I know very well what a good translator is supposed to know and do.
There are two general problems:
In my own country I had a lot of work in the translation field.
Now I live in another country where my mother-tongue is not needed and where I am supposed to adapt myself and work also with other languages.
What you say means:
On one hand I should not accept to translate documents which are not in/into my mother-tongue and on the other hand not to bid here for a translation in a pair of languages that I know (and am certificated)if it does not include my mother-tongue.
My pairs are here rather not existent.
So how should I live?
I still think(and somebody also mentioned here) it is a matter of demand and offer.If there are many bids for a pair of languages, then the jobposter has to put severe conditions.If there are no bids he is going to accept everything.
As a matter of fact I had to do a translation between to languages none of them being mother-tongue and it worked.Well it was technical document. It was not very easy but there were no problems.
And I think important is to proof what a person can really do.
I had the surprise here, in the country where I live, to see people not knowing words in their own language and I, a foreigner do know it, for the simply fact that I read much.
To translate means to understand the origin text proper and to put it correctly in the other language.If mother-tongue or not, it doesn't matter, if you can fullfill the two basic requirement.
The only difference is for literature texts where you must also make the text literary,sensible.But even here it depends on your talent and skills.
Ruxi ▲ Collapse
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| 2 eurocents from a bilingual translator | Apr 5, 2004 |
I had the good fortune to live in Italy during my formative years, and my parents sent me to an American school in Rome. We eventually moved back to the US, where I finished high school, college and some grad school. And then I moved back to Italy.
Italians think I'm Italian as soon as I open my mouth, and I have even picked up the local accent.
I have lived here for MORE THAN half my life. I speak Italian all the time, I watch TV in Italian, I enjoy Italian films, I read novels and ... See more I had the good fortune to live in Italy during my formative years, and my parents sent me to an American school in Rome. We eventually moved back to the US, where I finished high school, college and some grad school. And then I moved back to Italy.
Italians think I'm Italian as soon as I open my mouth, and I have even picked up the local accent.
I have lived here for MORE THAN half my life. I speak Italian all the time, I watch TV in Italian, I enjoy Italian films, I read novels and periodicals in Italy. However, all my schooling was in English. And that's why I never, ever translate into Italian. It is not my mother tongue and will never be. I can understand the nuances of Italian, but I can never render them the way an Italian can.
Translators go on and on about "specializing" in different fields: legal, medical, technical, literature.
For starters, how about specializing in your own language?
[Edited at 2004-04-05 19:37] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Quality and Price | Apr 5, 2004 |
1. machine translation
2. non-native speaker
3. native speaker
4. native professional
5. native prof. proofread by another native prof.
6. quality 5 proofread by a marketing prof.
That's the usual scale of maximum quality you can expect (it can always turn out worser, of course).
Just ask your customer which quality he can afford.
| | | | | Agree with CBolton | Apr 5, 2004 |
I have lived in Italy for 15 years, studied in an Italian university, and live, breathe and dream in Italian. Having said this, I NEVER translate into Italian. And I daresay that I have never read an English translation performed by an Italian translator (or by any other foreign speaker for that matter) that didn't lack that certain something that a native speaker commands in his own language. Jennifer
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valyn
Local time: 06:42
English to French
| what about african translators whose native language is different from their official language | Apr 5, 2004 |
although i do agree that people translate better into their native language
i wonder what to say about african translators whose mother tongue is often different from their official first language (from colonialism. as a matter of fact, they are brought up talking and learning both the african language which is the native language of their tribe and culture and what is considered to be their first language which is the official language
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 00:42
English to Russian
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cbolton wrote:
For starters, how about specializing in your own language?
[Edited at 2004-04-05 19:37]
A professional translator not doing translations into another language at least in his prime working pair deprives himself of 50% of necessary language training, research, cross-referencing, comparisons, discoveries etc., and this way he/she will miss on quite a few things in mastering both languages professionally, his/her own including. However, I agree that this must be a long and careful process before one can enter the market with offers to translate into a foreign language, and I also agree that the range of possible subjects would (and likely should) be much narrower. I know such professionals personally, I enjoy this simple fact of life - regardless of our arguments they exist, they are overwhelmed with work coming from very professional, demanding and knowledgeable clients and they are the best. I do not mind calling them the elite of the trade and I continue to learn from them.
As far as placing non-natives next to the machine translation - not such a nice comment, but no offence taken. In the other forum regarding freelancers rating I've mentioned it already that translators are very much like movie stars - fancyful and touchy.
A scream in a makeup room about another young (er) contestant: "Who told you she is an singer?!?!?!?! She is a stupid cowgirl from that trashy town in the middle of nowhere with 600 people total!!!!!!!!":):):).
Respectfully,
Irina
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 08:42
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
I can boast that I speak, e.g., Russian, better and more correctly than most of "native Russian" speakers here in Latvia. None the less, I NEVER myself translate into Russian (or English, for that matter), because our acquisition of language nuances starts when you say "mommy" for the first time in your life, than it is followed by fairy tales, your summers with granny at countryside and getting to know name of each tree, berry, plant, butterfly, bird, mushroom, type of cloud or breeze, after th... See more I can boast that I speak, e.g., Russian, better and more correctly than most of "native Russian" speakers here in Latvia. None the less, I NEVER myself translate into Russian (or English, for that matter), because our acquisition of language nuances starts when you say "mommy" for the first time in your life, than it is followed by fairy tales, your summers with granny at countryside and getting to know name of each tree, berry, plant, butterfly, bird, mushroom, type of cloud or breeze, after that all kinds of slang at school… and so forth. Of course, all above mentioned is not enough to become a qualified translator, but no years spent at university or target-speaking environment as a grown-up can make up for it.
Let's leave to fiction James Bond passing for Russian officer at a Russian Air Base and Russian spy Shtirlic doing what he likes for whole WWII at Hitler's Headquarters
Uldis
cbolton wrote:
I can understand the nuances of Italian, but I can never render them the way an Italian can.
Translators go on and on about "specializing" in different fields: legal, medical, technical, literature.
For starters, how about specializing in your own language?
[Edited at 2004-04-05 19:37] ▲ Collapse
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