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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

aïeux

English translation:

golden-age couple

Added to glossary by SafeTex
May 17, 2013 14:56
10 yrs ago
French term

aïeux

French to English Art/Literary Journalism
Hello

We all know the word but how can I translate it in the following sentence

Nous voilà installé dans un restaurant où une famille fête les 70 ans de mariages des*** aïeux***.

I guess that the whole family is there so the old couple in question could be the great grandparents to some, grandparents to others, even the older brother or sister to others etc

Forefathers, ancestors etc doesn't sound right either (dead, iived in caves etc)

Any ideas please?
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 golden-age couple
3 +4 two elderly members
4 +3 grandparents
4 +1 of the older generation(s)
3 +2 senior members
4 +1 elders
3 +2 leave it out
3 +1 old folk
2 +2 patriarch and matriarch
4 (living) forebears
4 old couple
3 +1 their oldest generation
3 eldest/most senior couple in the family
References
Aïeux, aïeuls
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Nikki Scott-Despaigne

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Discussion

Jane Proctor (X) May 19, 2013:
platinum couple Taking Andrew's suggestion one step further. Looks like gallagy2 was also thinking along the same lines. (SafeTex, you don't really want a 13th official answer, do you?!?)
rkillings May 19, 2013:
Lexicographic reference The option to post a reference for this question is missing, or I'd use it. Here's one that is germane, from a branch of the CNRS:
http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/aïeux

Of interest is the very first citation given:
I.− GÉNÉALOGIE, lang. commune
A.− Vx. Grands-parents :
1. Les jours de fête, (...) il regardait les habitants sortir de leurs maisons, puis les danses sur les places, (...) et le soir venu, par le vitrage des rez-de-chaussée, les longues tables de famille où des aïeux tenaient des petits enfants sur leurs genoux... G. Flaubert, Trois contes, La Légende de saint Julien l'Hospitalier, 1877, p. 124.
Francis Marche May 18, 2013:
Not yet Germaine. But we have a "leave it out" option, comme en mathématique l'ensemble vide. Babel, on dira ce qu'on voudra, est un univers complet et magnifique !
Germaine May 18, 2013:
LOL Et encore! personne n'a osé "great grandparents".
Francis Marche May 18, 2013:
Douze versions conclurrentes pour dire ça en anglais! eh bien mes aïeux! (http://www.languefrancaise.net/bob/detail.php?id=32571)
c'est pas demain la veille que nous aurons une langue unique et universelle, et les traducteurs ont encore de beaux jours devant eux!
Germaine May 18, 2013:
Je dois convenir avec Francis qu'une personne qui trouve le moyen de faire trois fautes (accord, orthographe et solécisme) dans une seule phrase de 16 mots ne "vole pas haut". Journaliste ou pas. Il ne fait aucun doute que c'est le mot "aïeuls" qui aurait dû être utilisé ici. Vous remarquerez que le mot "aïeux", qui désigne nos ancêtres (apparentés ou non), n'a pas de singulier. Or, vous avez, dans ce couple, un aïeul et une aïeule; le pluriel est aïeuls et non "aïeux".
rkillings May 18, 2013:
aïeux vs aïeuls The journalist here is not necessarily "subliterate". Le Grand Robert glosses two accepted senses of the first word that the writer could be using. One is the "literary" meaning (of the plural with -x), carefully defined as 'Ceux de qui l'on descend, *ou* ceux qui ont vécu dans les siècles passés' [my emphasis]; the other is the "figurative" meaning of 'précurseur'.

Note that the "literary" meaning does not exclude the living, and indeed it is not hard to find recent instances of the phrase 'aïeux vivants [et/ou] défunts', such as the one in this article: http://www.telerama.fr/livres/lionel-edouard-martin-deuil-a-...

The evidence suggests that this word is used in FR as a gender-neutral term for all relatives in a direct line of ascendance, of any generation, male or female, living or dead.
Much as "forebear" is used in EN, in genealogical, anthropological and legal contexts. :-)
Francis Marche May 18, 2013:
The point made by Germaine (aïeux vs aïeuls) is crucial. The source text is subliterate and the E word here should be "grand-parents."
Jean-Claude Gouin May 18, 2013:
aïeux: ancêtres, anciens ...
en anglais: elders, forefathers ...
en espagnol: abuelos (es) ...
en suédois: förfäder ...

ancêtres: deux générations au moins ...
Germaine May 18, 2013:
The source should read: Nous voilà installéS dans un restaurant où une famille fête les 70 ans de mariagE des aïeuLS. - aïeuls = grands-parents (vivants); aïeux = ancêtres (morts)

Je crois que "grandparents" associé à "70 ans de mariage" ne laisse aucun doute sur le fait qu'il pourrait y avoir plus de trois générations sur place. Mais si vous hésitez, what about "great grandparents"?
SafeTex (asker) May 18, 2013:
Mariages in the plural If it is a typo, it is not mine but the writer. However, knowing the style of this client, I think that Paul Hirst's comment is helpful here
Paul Hirsh May 17, 2013:
It is the commonest spelling mistake in French, made by people of all educational levels. Since they stopped pronouncing the s the French no longer know (or have stopped thinking about) the difference between singular and plural, except where marked by des or les
philgoddard May 17, 2013:
I think mariages must be a typo.
Sheila Wilson May 17, 2013:
Is this set nowadays? Variant of English? Starting with "we" implies (at least to me) normal, everyday language rather than more formal synonyms. But everyday language changes much more than formal, and also is more dependent on region.
kashew May 17, 2013:
Why is "mariages" plural? How many anniversaries are being celebrated? A multiple event?

Proposed translations

+4
5 hrs
Selected

golden-age couple

Since this is an informal setting. Sounds more endearing, I think.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days1 hr (2013-05-19 16:16:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

(borrowing from gallagy2's translation) "...celebrate the platinum wedding anniversary of the golden-age couple."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days1 hr (2013-05-19 16:19:33 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"...celebrate the platinum wedding anniversary of the" golden-age couple.
Peer comment(s):
agree lindaellen (X) : I like this solution. It has the charm and warmth that fits the situation.
15 hrs
Thanks, Linda.
agree Lori Cirefice
16 hrs
Thanks, Lori.
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : I think "golden-age" clashes with "platinum anniversary"
18 hrs
I always thought the Irish loved their gold!
agree Sheila Wilson : Nice. Claim "poetic licence" for the clash of metals // Come to think of it, what's wrong with simple "couple"? They aren't likely to be spring chickens, are they?
21 hrs
Thanks, Sheila. "Couple" sounds good to me!
neutral Jane Proctor (X) : I was going to agree until I realised that this is their platinum anniversary.. wouldn't "platinum couple" make more sense? // shan't risk a 13th answer, but will post as a "discussion"!
1 day 19 hrs
I certainly can't argue with "platinum couple" either. I think it's a fine solution; something tells me gallagy2 would agree.// 13 is a lucky number in Italy!
agree Yolanda Broad : Good approach. It's warm and it sidesteps the relationship between the various generations (one person's grandpa would be her uncle's dad, etc.!)
1 day 20 hrs
Thanks, Yolanda.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "This was my first choice and luckily joint number 1 choice in 'agree' also. Thanks everyone for you suggestions"
+1
3 mins

of the older generation(s)

..
Peer comment(s):
agree Sheila Wilson : I can see that sitting very happily in the context
1 day 2 hrs
Sheila, thanks for your endorsement!
Something went wrong...
+2
13 mins

senior members

Peer comment(s):
agree Lori Cirefice
21 hrs
Thanks, Lorie.
agree Sheila Wilson : a very politically-correct possibility
1 day 2 hrs
Thanks, Sheila
Something went wrong...
+4
40 mins

two elderly members

I'm supposing there are two of them
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard
1 hr
thanks Phil
agree Helen Shiner
1 hr
thanks Helen
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Nice solution.
2 hrs
thanks Nikki
neutral Paul Hirsh : Ouch! is this a same sex platinum wedding?
2 hrs
the mind boggles, as they say
agree GILLES MEUNIER
17 hrs
thanks Gilou
Something went wrong...
+3
46 mins

grandparents

or failing that, old folks

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 48 mins (2013-05-17 15:44:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the most natural expression, sufficiently generic to encompass however many generations are gathered
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch
24 mins
thanks!
agree Nikki Scott-Despaigne : I agree with your solution as I think it is the clear meaning here. I had thought of "elders" but it sounds pejorative.//Phil has a point.
1 hr
thanks!
neutral philgoddard : I don't think grandparents works, for the reason stated by the asker.
1 hr
OK
agree raptisi
18 hrs
agree Jean-Claude Gouin : My first choice is 'forefathers' but my second choice would be grandparents ...
21 hrs
Forefathers is indeed a close equivalent of aieux, but both words suggest those that have gone *before*. Here one supposes that these oldsters are part of the gathering. My subjective view!
disagree Victoria Britten : Depends where you're standing: seventy years after getting married, they're most probably (also, at least) GREAT-grandparents.
1 day 7 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

old folk

This seems to be an informal comment, especially since, as previously mentioned, "mariages" is in the plural and "installe" lacks the "s". In that vein, I would suggest "the 70th wedding anniversary of the oldies". If this is too informal, replace "oldies" with "the oldest people in the family" (although this sounds a little clumsy. Incidentally, good on them for living together for 70 years without committing murder!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Jane F : presumably the desire to murder each other diminishes with time :)
2 hrs
agree Sheila Wilson : "oldies" would work very well in an informal context. Maybe "older members" as an alternative. @ Jane - at only 30+ years I can say it's cyclical :)
1 day 1 hr
Something went wrong...
+2
2 hrs

patriarch and matriarch

family patriarch and matriarch

Just to throw in another suggestion. You wouldn't normally use this when referring to people you just see in a restaurant and don't actually know, but it could possibly work if the tone is, e.g. slightly tongue-in-cheek.
Peer comment(s):
agree Simon Charass
3 hrs
agree Daryo
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
52 mins

(living) forebears

Keep it simple, and keep 'old', 'elderly', 'senior', etc. out of it.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-05-17 19:38:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Living forebears" a US concept? More likely, a touch academic in the UK:
http://www.efm.bris.ac.uk/het/seebohmhugh/structureGreektrib... (1895)
http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/1861347707.pdf‎ (2005)

But then, 'aïeux' in FR meaning, literally, grandparents -- and not more distant progenitors -- is considered 'Vx ou littér' by Le Grant Robert.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2013-05-17 19:39:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Le Grand Robert, I meant to write.
Peer comment(s):
neutral B D Finch : I find it difficult to think of "forebears" as "living".//OK, accepted, but still only 50 UK ghits, so perhaps "living forebears" is more of a US concept.
19 mins
Perhaps you should review some of the >900 Ghits for "living forebears", or the Ngram results in Google's corpus of English books.:-)
neutral Germaine : Agree with B D Finch and the fact that you need to add "living" says it all. R&C also gives aïeul = grandparent; ancêtres (aïeux) = forebear. The rule is the same in French (see discussion), and it's a common mistake to mix the two.
20 hrs
You *don't* need to add 'living', which is why I put it in brackets. The context implies that those whose long marriage is being celebrated are alive and present. Nothing about 'forebear' (or progenitor/precurser, etc.) implies being deceased.
neutral Yvonne Gallagher : agree with previous comments; I also equate "forebears" with "ancestors"
23 hrs
You should not equate the two. Forebear implies precedence but not predecease.
neutral Sheila Wilson : I can't see forebears sharing the restaurant with the writer
1 day 1 hr
Something went wrong...
34 mins

old couple

as you suggested yourself, seems to be the simplest way to do this

celebrate the 70th (or platinum) wedding anniversary of the old couple

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 37 mins (2013-05-17 15:33:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or ..

...old couple in question

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2013-05-17 21:15:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

or another option which is also neutral about the family relationship

the elderly pair



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs (2013-05-18 09:39:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I took "marriages" to be singular from the start given the context. It is ONE family (une famille) in the restaurant so how likely is is that there are TWO (or more) couples celebrating a platinum wedding from the one family? It has to be a typo/spelling error
Peer comment(s):
neutral Sheila Wilson : actually, marriages of 2+ couples were quite common during the war years when they were often rather rushed affairs - but that's just a comment
1 day 2 hrs
2 marriages from the one family? Surely highly unlikely to begin with and then for both marriages to last 70 years??
Something went wrong...
+1
21 hrs

elders

*

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 heures (2013-05-18 12:14:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Simple. Like this, it doesn't matter how big the family is and how many wedding anniversaries are being celebrated!
Peer comment(s):
agree Lara Barnett
8 hrs
Thanks
Something went wrong...
+2
21 hrs

leave it out

I suggest that you don't put anything ie, a phrase along the lines of " a family group was there, celebrating a platinum wedding".
And obviously the couple in question is going to be very very old - no need to explain, necessarily IMO.
Also, at that age, these old people are obviously the parents of some, grandparents of others, great-grandparents of others...
The problem is that the speaker is not talking about his/her own family, where the problem would be resolved by names (eg Mamie and Papy for grandparents, Mémé and Pépé for great-grandparents).
That is my reasoning.
Otherwise I would go with Paul's suggestion, in spite of the valid objections raised.
Peer comment(s):
agree Sheila Wilson : much better than resorting to words one would never use in normal conversation
5 hrs
Thanks Sheila :-)
agree Victoria Britten : (though I don't agree with Paul's suggestion!)
10 hrs
Thanks Victoria :-) Do see your point re Paul's suggestion...
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

their oldest generation

i.e. the family's oldest generation.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2013-05-18 21:44:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Noticing Kashew's reference, where the word is used in French, I thought one could call them, the doyens of the family.

www.alexanderpalace.org/memoriesrussia/chapter_II.html‎
"It was there decided that the Grand Duke, as doyen of the family, and as a favourite with their Majesties, should take on himself the. difficult duty of speaking in ..."

books.google.fr/books?isbn=1578630398
Hall - 1998 - Body, Mind & Spirit
"But it took sustained digging, and the cooperation of my maternal grandmother and other doyens of the family to reveal just how far back the patterns went."

www.zeetv.co.uk/zeetv/shows/qubool-hai.html‎
"She is a total misfit in the conservative home that is run by the super orthodox doyen of the family. And as is to be expected it leads to immediate disaster."
Peer comment(s):
agree Nicholas Andrew Courtney : "doyens," wish I'd thought of that
1 day 8 hrs
Something went wrong...
2 days 10 hrs

eldest/most senior couple in the family

suggestion

I suspect the tendency, for Christmas especially, is to have the family celebration at the home of the most senior couple in the family.
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2009/12/traditional_hol.h...
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

2 days 8 mins
Reference:

Aïeux, aïeuls

Aïeux - subst. masc. plur.

I. GÉNÉALOGIE, lang. commune. A. Vx. Grands-parents. B. Usuel, littér.
Ensemble de personnes (gén. de sexe masc.) qui sont à l'origine d'une lignée continue ou appartiennent aux générations anciennes d'une lignée continue. Synon. ancêtres, ascendants… Mrs. Dingley avait hérité de ses aïeux français émigrés au dix-septième siècle (…) Loc., gén. de style noble. Rejoindre ses aïeux. Mourir (…) (Ô) mes aïeux! Expression où l'on prend ses ancêtres à témoin de quelque chose de peu commun (…) 2. En partic., littér. Ancêtres connus d'une famille illustre (…) 3. P. ext. Ancêtres d'une collectivité (ville, peuple, etc.) (…)

Rem. 1. (…) un certain nombre de traits « stylistiques » qui caractérisent aïeux : a) Il est noté comme terme d'honneur (…) associé avec des termes laud. (dignes, illustres…) c) Il prend souvent une coloration affective avec l'idée de patrimoine moral ou spirituel à conserver (…) Loc. prép. à la mémoire de mes aïeux, au nom de mes aïeux, par mes aïeux… culte des aïeux, mœurs des aïeux, terre des aïeux…hériter de ses aïeux, suivre les traces de ses aïeux, tenir de ses aïeux…

Prononc. ET ORTH. (…)2. Dér. et composés : bisaïeul, trisaïeul, quadrisaïeul (cf. JUILL. 1965). 3. Forme graph. Ortho-vert 1966, p. 62 : Aïeul a deux pluriels : aïeuls, si l'on veut désigner les grands-parents (...), aïeux si l'on veut désigner les ancêtres (cf. aussi les dict. du XXe s.). (…) Tous les dict. du XIXe s. font pour le plur. la distinction entre aïeuls (grands-parents) et aïeux (ancêtres). (…)
Reference:

http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/advanced.exe?8;s=4111116375;

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