Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
bon prince
English translation:
as if he were some kind of magnanimous prince
Added to glossary by
Barbara Cochran, MFA
Jul 31, 2021 16:07
2 yrs ago
51 viewers *
French term
United States
Laudable Lady Linguist
Native in: English 
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English, English to Spanish, and 3 more.
bon prince
COVID-19
French to English
Art/Literary
History
From An Art History Book
Contexte:
Dans le premier paragraph (of an order he issued), Goering, bon prince, intervient en faveur de l'ERR.
I certainly get the impression that the author is using irony in this case. Do you think it would be better to translate the phrase as "to show his magnanimity", even though Goering was anything but magnanimous, and, in fact, very greedy when it came to adding so much of the stolen artwork to his personal collection.
Or do you think I should use something more colorful, such as "being the great king/ruler that he was"?
Merci Beaucoup,
Barbara
Dans le premier paragraph (of an order he issued), Goering, bon prince, intervient en faveur de l'ERR.
I certainly get the impression that the author is using irony in this case. Do you think it would be better to translate the phrase as "to show his magnanimity", even though Goering was anything but magnanimous, and, in fact, very greedy when it came to adding so much of the stolen artwork to his personal collection.
Or do you think I should use something more colorful, such as "being the great king/ruler that he was"?
Merci Beaucoup,
Barbara
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +1 | magnanimously |
Francois Boye
|
| 3 +6 | grandly |
Marco Solinas
|
| 4 +1 | the benevolent |
Katarina Peters
|
| 3 +2 | a real gentleman |
Conor McAuley
|
| 4 +1 | always.. |
Christopher Crockett
|
| 4 -2 | Great/Good |
Paul P Varghese
|
Change log
Aug 1, 2021 17:01: Barbara Cochran, MFA Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+1
1 day 34 mins
Francois Boye
United States
United States
Native in French
United States
An economic geek with social skills
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
3
Selected
magnanimously
Être bon prince, faire preuve de générosité, de bienveillance, d'indulgence.
Source: Ditionnaire Larousse
Source: Ditionnaire Larousse
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Michele Fauble
: Suggested multiple times in the comments to other answers before you posted this.
2 hrs
|
| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: Already suggested
19 hrs
|
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+6
14 mins
Marco Solinas
Native in English
Works in field
Accurate, professional translations
Native in: English , Italian
Works in: Italian to English, French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
8
grandly
Innumerable translations are available.
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Note added at 20 mins (2021-07-31 16:27:46 GMT)
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To asker. No, not as in "grandiose", which denotes "showing off". I mean as in grand, lofty. Let the irony do the job.
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Note added at 20 mins (2021-07-31 16:27:46 GMT)
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To asker. No, not as in "grandiose", which denotes "showing off". I mean as in grand, lofty. Let the irony do the job.
Note from asker:
| Do you mean "in a grandiose manner"? |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: Or generously, or magnanimously.
1 hr
|
| neutral |
Nicole Acher
: I think phil's suggestion of "magnanimously" better conveys the sarcastic tone.
2 hrs
|
| agree |
Katarina Peters
: yes to magnanimously
2 hrs
|
| agree |
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
: magnanimously
3 hrs
|
| agree |
Verginia Ophof
4 hrs
|
| agree |
AllegroTrans
: magnanimously
6 hrs
|
| agree |
Emmanuella
: magnanimously
18 hrs
|
-2
24 mins
Paul P Varghese
India
India
Native in English
India
Translator with 6+ years of experience.
Native in: English
Works in: Hindi to English, Spanish to English, Afrikaans to English, and 19 more.
Great/Good
Both can be used
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: Goering, great, intervenes in favour of the ERR - does not make sense
6 hrs
|
| disagree |
SafeTex
: if you had said "Goering the Great" or "the Good Goering", you'd already be a lot closer but as your suggestion stands, it is very poor I'm sorry to say
7 hrs
|
+1
57 mins
Katarina Peters
Canada
Canada
Native in English
Canada
Accuracy and A1 presentation
Native in: Hungarian , English (Variant: US)
Works in: English to Portuguese, Portuguese to English, Hungarian to English, and 13 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
8
the benevolent
as Marco says, let the irony speak for itself...
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Christopher Crockett
: An AlGore: Close, but No Cigar. I disagree with calling this "irony" --it is Sarcasm; Goering *was* a Prince in the Fuhrer's court --thus not "irony" in the sense Of an opposite meaning. Re AlGore, sorry for the (sarcastic) reference to a US pres' smoking
20 mins
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just an antonym of cruel, egotistical, etc. and I don't understand the Al Gore reference here // thanks for your comment re Goering - please post a discussion entry pointing it out
|
|
| agree |
Nicole Acher
: This would work well. I also like philgoddard's suggestion of magnanimously.
1 hr
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Thanks Nicole, but it's too tame...
|
+2
7 hrs
Conor McAuley
France
France
Native in English
Works in field
France
Excellence, Expertise & Experience
Native in: English (Variants: Irish, British, Wales / Welsh, UK, Scottish)
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
12
a real gentleman
When people are talking about a guy in France, and say, in familiar language, "C'est une crème", "C'est un Prince", what they mean is "He's a really nice guy", "He's a top lad", "He's a real gentleman", "He's a really lovely guy", "He's a top man" (UK) etc., etc.
An example for "c'est une crème":
https://www.languefrancaise.net/Bob/6223
One of Barbara's Discussion entries sparked these thoughts.
So, with "a real gentleman", you keep the irony.
In reality, he just played a game of realpolitik, maybe he had some ulterior motive, like getting his hands on the works of art by some other means at a later date?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2021-07-31 23:17:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Going back to primary sources:
Être bon prince,
faire preuve de générosité, de bienveillance, d'indulgence.
Définitions : prince - Dictionnaire de français Laroussehttps://www.larousse.fr › dictionnaires › francais › prince
For this definition, you could say:
acting benevolently
And a final thought, maybe "prince" is also a little dig at his position in the Nazi hierarchy's pecking order.
Depending on when the events described took place:
"By 1941, Göring was at the peak of his power and influence. As the Second World War progressed, Göring's standing with Hitler and with the German public declined..."
My God, he's got creepy eyes that leap off the computer screen, I've got goosebumps.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2021-07-31 23:24:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
A direct link to the relevant Larousse entry I referenced above:
https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/prince/63957#...
An example for "c'est une crème":
https://www.languefrancaise.net/Bob/6223
One of Barbara's Discussion entries sparked these thoughts.
So, with "a real gentleman", you keep the irony.
In reality, he just played a game of realpolitik, maybe he had some ulterior motive, like getting his hands on the works of art by some other means at a later date?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2021-07-31 23:17:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Going back to primary sources:
Être bon prince,
faire preuve de générosité, de bienveillance, d'indulgence.
Définitions : prince - Dictionnaire de français Laroussehttps://www.larousse.fr › dictionnaires › francais › prince
For this definition, you could say:
acting benevolently
And a final thought, maybe "prince" is also a little dig at his position in the Nazi hierarchy's pecking order.
Depending on when the events described took place:
"By 1941, Göring was at the peak of his power and influence. As the Second World War progressed, Göring's standing with Hitler and with the German public declined..."
My God, he's got creepy eyes that leap off the computer screen, I've got goosebumps.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2021-07-31 23:24:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
A direct link to the relevant Larousse entry I referenced above:
https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/prince/63957#...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Christopher Crockett
: There was no "maybe" about it --le petit prince Goering was famous for his excellent taste in (other peoples') art --and not at some future date.
34 mins
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Thanks Christopher!
|
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| agree |
ph-b (X)
: "always/ever the gentleman"? (borrowing a bit from Christopher)
12 hrs
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Thanks ph-b!
|
+1
1 hr
Christopher Crockett
Native in English
Specializes in field
M.A., Ph.D. Historian/Art Historian
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
100
always..
Seems to me that "always [something]" conveys the right sense of sarcasm needed here --just pick the right (most appropriately Grandiose) noun.
"..,always the faithful lackey"
Not quite a "prince", perhaps, but sometimes a little Demotion is good for the soul.
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Note added at 1 hr (2021-07-31 17:55:05 GMT)
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Good WordSmithing requires many strikes on the verbal anvil.
", always the good prince, doing the Führer 's bidding,"
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Note added at 2 hrs (2021-07-31 18:09:48 GMT)
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Or "good Princeling doing..." (I don't like "little" for some reason.
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Note added at 7 hrs (2021-07-31 23:55:51 GMT)
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Or "G., always noted for being a real prince of a fellow,..."
Except that "real prince is as much of (a localized?) idiom as the French was, and might be understood too literally.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2021-08-01 04:52:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Or "G., always noted for being a real prince of a fellow,..."
Except that "real prince is as much of (a localized?) idiom as the French was, and might be understood too literally.
"..,always the faithful lackey"
Not quite a "prince", perhaps, but sometimes a little Demotion is good for the soul.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2021-07-31 17:55:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Good WordSmithing requires many strikes on the verbal anvil.
", always the good prince, doing the Führer 's bidding,"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2021-07-31 18:09:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Or "good Princeling doing..." (I don't like "little" for some reason.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2021-07-31 23:55:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Or "G., always noted for being a real prince of a fellow,..."
Except that "real prince is as much of (a localized?) idiom as the French was, and might be understood too literally.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2021-08-01 04:52:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Or "G., always noted for being a real prince of a fellow,..."
Except that "real prince is as much of (a localized?) idiom as the French was, and might be understood too literally.
Note from asker:
| "like a good little prince, doing the ruler's (Hitler's) bidding, perhaps"? |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
ph-b (X)
: always the.../[EDIT] "always/ever the gentleman"? (borrowing a bit from Conor]
11 hrs
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Thanks, Ph.
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Reference comments
4 hrs
Reference:
Additional information, fwiw
Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg
L’Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg (ERR) (Équipe d'intervention du Reichsleiter Rosenberg) était une section du bureau de politique étrangère du NSDAP, dirigée dès 1933 par Alfred Rosenberg (1893-1946). L'ERR se voulait l'organe exécutif de la Hohe Schule (École supérieure) de Rosenberg.
L'ERR a effectué à partir de 1940 d'importantes confiscations de biens appartenant à des Juifs et des francs-maçons dans les territoires occupés par la Wehrmacht.L’Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg (ERR) (Équipe d'intervention du Reichsleiter Rosenberg) était une section du bureau de politique étrangère du NSDAP, dirigée dès 1933 par Alfred Rosenberg (1893-1946). L'ERR se voulait l'organe exécutif de la Hohe Schule (École supérieure) de Rosenberg.
.....
L'ERR en France (à partir de 1940)[modifier | modifier le code]
Établi à Paris en juillet 1940, il est dirigé par le baron Kurt von Behr (de) (1890-1945) assisté de Bruno Lohse (1911-2007). Des objets d'art ont été confisqués dans plus de cinquante lieux différents et exposés lors de sept expositions au Jeu de Paume, surtout dans le but de montrer à Rosenberg et Hermann Göring, avec lequel l'ERR collabore étroitement à Paris, une vue d'ensemble des objets précieux confisqués.
Les bibliothèques ayant fait l'objet de saisies, dont la bibliothèque polonaise, la bibliothèque russe Tourguenev (13, rue de la Bûcherie) et les bibliothèques de nombreuses loges parisiennes devaient alimenter la bibliothèque centrale de l'École supérieure (Hohe Schule). Mi-1941, le travail de l'ERR en France était pratiquement achevé. Selon le rapport de travail, 203 collectes avaient concerné 21 903 objets. Rose Valland, attachée de conservation au Jeu de Paume, a fait l'inventaire détaillé des œuvres transférées, et de leur déplacement de 1940 à 1944.
En France, pendant l'occupation de Paris, l'Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg siège d'abord à l'hôtel Commodore (12, boulevard Haussmann) puis 54, avenue d'Iéna.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzstab_Reichsleiter_Rosen...
L’Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg (ERR) (Équipe d'intervention du Reichsleiter Rosenberg) était une section du bureau de politique étrangère du NSDAP, dirigée dès 1933 par Alfred Rosenberg (1893-1946). L'ERR se voulait l'organe exécutif de la Hohe Schule (École supérieure) de Rosenberg.
L'ERR a effectué à partir de 1940 d'importantes confiscations de biens appartenant à des Juifs et des francs-maçons dans les territoires occupés par la Wehrmacht.L’Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg (ERR) (Équipe d'intervention du Reichsleiter Rosenberg) était une section du bureau de politique étrangère du NSDAP, dirigée dès 1933 par Alfred Rosenberg (1893-1946). L'ERR se voulait l'organe exécutif de la Hohe Schule (École supérieure) de Rosenberg.
.....
L'ERR en France (à partir de 1940)[modifier | modifier le code]
Établi à Paris en juillet 1940, il est dirigé par le baron Kurt von Behr (de) (1890-1945) assisté de Bruno Lohse (1911-2007). Des objets d'art ont été confisqués dans plus de cinquante lieux différents et exposés lors de sept expositions au Jeu de Paume, surtout dans le but de montrer à Rosenberg et Hermann Göring, avec lequel l'ERR collabore étroitement à Paris, une vue d'ensemble des objets précieux confisqués.
Les bibliothèques ayant fait l'objet de saisies, dont la bibliothèque polonaise, la bibliothèque russe Tourguenev (13, rue de la Bûcherie) et les bibliothèques de nombreuses loges parisiennes devaient alimenter la bibliothèque centrale de l'École supérieure (Hohe Schule). Mi-1941, le travail de l'ERR en France était pratiquement achevé. Selon le rapport de travail, 203 collectes avaient concerné 21 903 objets. Rose Valland, attachée de conservation au Jeu de Paume, a fait l'inventaire détaillé des œuvres transférées, et de leur déplacement de 1940 à 1944.
En France, pendant l'occupation de Paris, l'Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg siège d'abord à l'hôtel Commodore (12, boulevard Haussmann) puis 54, avenue d'Iéna.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzstab_Reichsleiter_Rosen...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Christopher Crockett
: Thanks for the clarification, WA. On Niceness: Ditto.
2 hrs
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So nice to see you again!!!
|
7 hrs
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois)
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Reference:
Definition
https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=bons_princes&act...
French
Pronunciation
IPA(key): /bɔ̃ pʁɛ̃s/
Audio
Menu
0:00
Adjective
bon prince (plural bons princes)
magnanimous, generous, sporting, indulgent, benevolent
être bon prince ― to be a real trouper, to be a good egg, to be a good sort, to be a kindly soul
Usage notes
Only used in predicative position, and only for men.
See also
grand seigneur
French
Pronunciation
IPA(key): /bɔ̃ pʁɛ̃s/
Audio
Menu
0:00
Adjective
bon prince (plural bons princes)
magnanimous, generous, sporting, indulgent, benevolent
être bon prince ― to be a real trouper, to be a good egg, to be a good sort, to be a kindly soul
Usage notes
Only used in predicative position, and only for men.
See also
grand seigneur
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Conor McAuley
: Yes, see the Larousse definition I posted.
9 mins
|
Discussion
La suite du texte :
Accorder sa protection à un service quand on est le deuxième personnage de l'état, c'est aussi s'en déclarer le maître
Ainsi, il pourra détourner des oeuvres d'art à sa guise.
imdb.com/title/tt0361748/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
which is a pretty good flick.
For Hollywood.
être un bon prince - to be generous.
https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/être bon ...
So I took its sense literally.
Though the play on the literal and idiomatic meanings is clearly not accidental, and should be reflected in the translation, if possible.
(Duh)
Here's an interesting discussion of the whole idea, ironic or not: https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/you-are-a-prince.975...
"Accorder sa protection à un service quand on est le deuxième personnage de l’État, c’est aussi s’en déclarer le maître."