| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Commentary on rates by job poster(s) in their posts Thread poster: Henry Hinds
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| The discussion continues | May 22, 2006 |
Reply to Marc:
Nobody is trying to keep people who want to pay low rates from meeting the translators who offer low rates. They both have the right to seek that, even on ProZ. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to subtly push for minimum rates under which jobs cannot be posted. What I would like, though, is for outsourcers/agencies to stop offering THEIR rates and to wait for the service providers to offer theirs, as that is how all other independant contractors function - and it i... See more Reply to Marc:
Nobody is trying to keep people who want to pay low rates from meeting the translators who offer low rates. They both have the right to seek that, even on ProZ. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to subtly push for minimum rates under which jobs cannot be posted. What I would like, though, is for outsourcers/agencies to stop offering THEIR rates and to wait for the service providers to offer theirs, as that is how all other independant contractors function - and it is the only way we can all be allowed to actually set our own rates. As a service provider, I should be free to charge what I want.
But I think you didn't read me through the last time, because you don't seem to take into account that the rates publicly displayed on ProZ do very much dictate the rates translators offer. The average for English to French on Proz is currently 11 cents - but in statistics, the rate is rather around 14 to 22 cents. Why is there such a difference? Because the ProZ rate is based on what ProZ translators display in their profile, which in turn is largely based on what agencies/outsourcers are willing to offer on ProZ, whereas the second category is largely based on private information, on what translators actually charge. As I have said, many new translators try to figure out on the internet how much they can charge, and what is available to them is ProZ job postings and profiles - both of which are much lower than the actual average rate. Everybody knows this. It comes down to this: instead of translators telling outsourcers how much they are worth so that outsourcers can adjust to them, the outsourcers are telling us how much we are worth to them and we have to adjust to that. This is insane!
There will always be people on both sides who will circumvent rules and policies. We are not going to get into that. As I said, even if outsourcers stopped posting rates, there would still be translators who would offer rock-bottom rates, just to make sure they will be chosen over translators who charge the "normal" rate. But there will be less of those in the long term, because most of us will still offer the rate that we think are worth, not the one we think the outsourcer think we are worth. In the long run, the average rate would most likely increase.
As you say, the sub-market is not going to vanish. I know that, everybody does and nobody was attacking the sub-market. But we sure would prefer to get as much access to the main market as we are getting to the sub-market as it is presently. Right now, on ProZ, all we get is the sub-market - and it is so because we allow it to rule. And since ProZ is booming, it is starting to play a role important enough that whatever is displayed on it has major influence on the market. So, in a sense, whatever ProZ is not doing right is actually hurting the market.
MarcPrior wrote:
A more radical solution might be along these lines: the jobs section to be restricted, on the quoting side, to Platinum members; in addition, the system to display not only the number of quotes submitted, but also the geographical location of the submitters.
Marc
These ideas also make a lot of sense. I haven't thought about this. However, please take note that displaying geographic locations, while it may be very handy for most of us, would probably aggravate hostility against groups of people that most of us know charge less, precisely because of their geographic locations. It would fuel an already bad feeling of blaming groups of people for damaging our market. It can be potentially dangerous - although this is the kind of information I myself would be interested in.
Reply to Aleksandr:
You can't seriously attack such policies as limiting the number of KudoZ questions a day we can post. It is very obvious why there is such a policy. I remember before this policy, there were many translators who just fed all their terms into ProZ and waited for the answers to pop out. Some would put 100 questions in there each day. They tried to become more productive, and therefore earn more money, by leaving the research up to fellow translators - who would do it for free! This is even worse than getting paid a low rate - this is slavery! Not to mention that back then, there were many "I love you" questions, and not all of them were legitimate questions, as some of them WERE posted by translators who just didn't feel like taking the time to figure their terms out for themselves. As for outsourcers to examine a translator's capacity according to the number of KudoZ they have, well, it happened to me ONCE to be evaluated by my KudoZ - and it seems I didn't have enough KudoZ in the field required. They informed me of not giving me the contract for this reason... I did not even write back to them, and thought to myself "Your loss, not mine". I don't want to work with people like those anyway.
By the way, according to the visits my profile gets, people don't take KudoZ questions into account so much. Many of my visits come from searches, where there are specific keywords. They find me first, even if KudoZ-wise, I am not very attractive. And they do contact me! You see, when someone is looking for a good translator, they will not simply write a batch of 100 messages to the first 100 results that come up in a certain language pair. Some people do that, but most will type in keywords. And as soon as you use keywords to search the directory, all rankings are lost. I don't rely on KudoZ to generate a clientele, yet I do get contacted fairly often through ProZ for work.
To finish, about the Ryanair example, it does not entirely apply. You see, Ryanair, just like any other company, is required to get people there on time and safely. They do that. But with translation, sadly, the job doesn't always land - it very often crashes. And in general, the lower the rate, the higher the number of crashes. You are right, give the client what he wants and charge accordingly - however, in translation, it would come down to charging a LOT! When I have to retype PDFs, translate images, use a specific terminology, etc., all this overnight, I am sorry but I just cannot charge for basic services...
And Marc, nobody is asking for job posters to compete with each other, although it would be very healthy for us. It would still be about the translators competing - but they would compete much more on quality than on rates, as they would offer their own rates, which would be higher than the ones presently "offered" by outsourcers.
[Edited at 2006-05-22 19:16] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 11:45
English to Russian
| To be more specific | May 22, 2006 |
I think it would be useful to have membership payments for all site members - freelancers, agencies, in-house translators, possibly with some differentiation: most expensive for agencies, then freelancers, least expensive for in-house folks. An alternative to this is totally free membership to all, which is bad because it leaves Proz team without the necessary resources and allows membership of not-so-serious people.
The amount could... See more I think it would be useful to have membership payments for all site members - freelancers, agencies, in-house translators, possibly with some differentiation: most expensive for agencies, then freelancers, least expensive for in-house folks. An alternative to this is totally free membership to all, which is bad because it leaves Proz team without the necessary resources and allows membership of not-so-serious people.
The amount could be like it is today, it is not too much if you compare it with your X-mas expenses or with what you spend on cigarettes.
I think that one mandatory requirement for membership must be correct information about yourself, no empty profiles. Assuming, however, that the owners of numerous blank profiles have a good reason for it, ‘an incognito’ type of profile could be made an option.
Everything that is contributed to the site by the member, not only accepted Kudoz answers, should be accounted for and summarized in the form, convenient for general assessment of a member’s activity on the site, this could be achieved very simply - by taking account of every kilobyte of data left by the member on the site, by category, of course, because a kilobyte in Kudoz is more valuable than a kilobyte in off-topic forums, AND strict moderation by site staff, moderators and senior members.
Or no ranking at all, but an opportunity for a visitor to search all posts/Kudoz answers etc. by a particular member.
Like it reads on home page of another popular site “Let’s keep this site real”
Stay well
Aleksandr ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I agree with much of this | May 22, 2006 |
Aleksandr,
You have expressed many ideas that are worth taking a closer look at. Making information about identity mandatory is definitely something we could use. Especially since there are people who got banned from the site and "resuscitated" under a new profile. There are many other good ideas in your post.
However, most of these solutions are drastic and would make the site rather unpleasant to use. I don't think we need to go that great lengths to simply ensure tha... See more Aleksandr,
You have expressed many ideas that are worth taking a closer look at. Making information about identity mandatory is definitely something we could use. Especially since there are people who got banned from the site and "resuscitated" under a new profile. There are many other good ideas in your post.
However, most of these solutions are drastic and would make the site rather unpleasant to use. I don't think we need to go that great lengths to simply ensure that there are no offensive and insulting job postings in the future. That is why I suggested to simply not allow the posting of target rates by outsourcers. This would be very easy to implement and would not change the site enough for people to have a hard time using it.
But there is always room for improvement and ProZ is no exception. I am only hoping that ProZ end up realizing that they are so visible now on the market that whatever they decide to do will have an impact - and that they will know how to use this "power" for the good of the industry, all the while making it worthwhile for themselves. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Susana Galilea 
United States
Local time: 03:45
English to Spanish
+ ...
| those pesky hidden charges... | May 22, 2006 |
Aleksandr Okunev wrote:
Many of his fares are less than a quarter of the British Airways ones. People have flocked to him.
People indeed flocked to Ryanair when it first came into the market. And yet, after the novelty of air travel for the equivalent of bus fare has passed, increasingly a more complete picture emerges, i.e. many people are starting to question whether the hassle and cost of having to fly at ungodly hours and pay exorbitant cab fares to reach their destination from the remote airports Ryanair and other budget airlines use, is actually worth the upfront savings. Similar to a client using the cheapest translator to find out getting the job fixed will cost them even more than the original translation. The hidden charges are never advertised, but by the time clients have had a chance to realize cheapness didn't come as cheap as expected, the impact on the quality market has already taken place. Which is why stressing education, service and professional standards seems more important to me than talking about dollars and cents (or substitute your own currency).
Susana
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Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 11:45
English to Russian
All of the below, except what appears on lighter background, is my personal opinion generated by my own head on Monday night and does not represent an absolute universal truth, but my humble opinion.
You can't seriously attack such policies as limiting the number of KudoZ questions a day we can post. It is very obvious why there is such a policy. I remember before this policy, there were many translators who just fed all their terms into ProZ and waited for the answers to pop out. Some would put 100 questions in there each day. They tried to become more productive, and therefore earn more money, by leaving the research up to fellow translators - who would do it for free! This is even worse than getting paid a low rate - this is slavery!
1 - When I joined this site there were no limitations. Then they were introduced unilaterally “which reflects bad on the site”, which I don’t like in my heart and which is illogical. Moreover, the limitation scale looks quite ridiculous:
a) Non-members - 1 question per day maximum;
b) Members - 15 daily, 60 per week maximum (which should be continued: “40 per month maximum, 350 per year maximum).
I never mind this. I translated tubewell stuff directly at the tubewells in the desert in Punjab. I barely ask a question a month. I would even donate my ‘question rights’. But the limitations simply do not make sense.
2 - Talking about slavery. I regret to say it, but this is complete nonsense.
I offer 1000 US dollars by Western Union to anyone who will manage to force me to answer one single Kudoz question. The worst part of this whole issue - is being dishonest to fellow translators and to yourselves. I wholeheartedly admit that at the beginning I tried to be active in Kudoz for the sake of self-promotion, because this idea was widely advertised by Proz and by fellow translators in my language pair, some of them even now still regard answering a ‘not-for-points’ or graded question as complete lunacy. But life went on and I changed a bit - now I do answer graded questions, not-4-points ones, once in a while I ask moderators to ‘ungrade’ my winning answer and contact the asker to persuade him to choose another answer because: A) This was done by other fellow translators on Proz before me; B) This contributes to the spirit of Kudoz, long-forgotten; C) This is no sacrifice!
Now, what pushes anyone into slavery is envy of the fellow translators more successful in playing this ridiculous game. There has been a thread recently in my language pair about the very same issue. A few posters advocated the point of view same as mine. The mainstream majority kept saying something similar to “slavery”, “abuse”, “exploitation”, failing to explain HOW exactly that rapacious asker managed to coerce them into answering his question, probably we are dealing here with NLP, UFO and X-Files stuff. I do not and will not accept ‘Kudoz slavery’ reasoning, this is just not true, and persisting in that brings you bad karma.
and not all of them were legitimate questions,
I think if a question is posted it is legitimate, at least for the person asking it. What can save Kudoz even now, even with the present system is strict enforcement of filling the “definition” field. In other words, the asker MUST give his idea of what he thinks it is. A Kudoz question without a definition must be squashed. Or answers to such questions must be without points. The one with a definition is a ‘real’ one because it simply takes time to fill the definition, which shows that the asker is serious about the question. The definition must be in the target language, to prevent the asker from simply copy/pasting something irrelevant from the original and this will/may attract experts from other fields of knowledge, given the multilingual interface of the site. Not so long ago I was doing a job and had to post a few questions at a Russian CNC forum. 1 - They were quite excited about Kudoz; 2 - I already got a client from that forum. It would be nice to have those guys here on Proz, most of them know a bit of English or German.
By the way, according to the visits my profile gets, people don't take KudoZ questions into account so much.
The vast majority of my clients don’t have a slightest idea what Proz is or if it exists at all. I am not quite happy about it. I would like to be a member of a translators’ site which everyone knows.
To finish, about the Ryanair example, it does not entirely apply. You see, Ryanair, just like any other company, is required to get people there on time and safely. They do that. But with translation, sadly, the job doesn't always land - it very often crashes. And in general, the lower the rate, the higher the number of crashes. You are right, give the client what he wants and charge accordingly - however, in translation, it would come down to charging a LOT! When I have to retype PDFs, translate images, use a specific terminology, etc., all this overnight, I am sorry but I just cannot charge for basic services...
Sometimes I feel like an alien. You missed the whole idea expressed by a very old, successful and wise British businessman which I quoted for you and highlighted its essence with bold type, you ignored my own remark and went back on this track again. There must be something wrong with me.
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One more point about pay membership for all.
Proz must then have a 1 month trial free “full” membership.
Good night,
Aleksandr
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 11:45
English to Russian
| Exactly my point | May 22, 2006 |
Susana Galilea wrote: Which is why stressing education, service and professional standards seems more important to me than talking about dollars and cents (or substitute your own currency).Susana
I mean absolutely the same.
Stay well.
Aleksandr
| | | | | It's all good, but... | May 23, 2006 |
Aleksandr, when I said slavery, I didn't mean that anyone was forced to answer any KudoZ questions. I meant that, while many translators only answer questions for fun, and very often - this is my case most of the time - to help out someone who is stuck and needs to deliver their finished translation right NOW (wouldn't you like some help at moments like this?), they often don't realize that the translator asking those questions is not asking them because they are stuck - they ask the questions ... See more Aleksandr, when I said slavery, I didn't mean that anyone was forced to answer any KudoZ questions. I meant that, while many translators only answer questions for fun, and very often - this is my case most of the time - to help out someone who is stuck and needs to deliver their finished translation right NOW (wouldn't you like some help at moments like this?), they often don't realize that the translator asking those questions is not asking them because they are stuck - they ask the questions because by having someone else do their research for them, they save time - and this leaves them more time to make more money. I actually saw an example of that yesterday. The same person posted a dozen questions at once, and they were EASY (does it really take a translator to translate "motorcycle handlebar"?)! I guess he/she didn't feel like looking it up in a dictionary...
It is slavery in the sense that, while I am answering the question to help, the asker actually takes advantage of me by having me do his/her homework. I am not forced to answer the question - but I AM doing part of someone else's translation for free. Am I going to stop helping deserving people up here because of this? Am I going to become mean because it doesn't pay off to be nice?
It's much like translation tests that are sent to many people at once by shady agencies. The tests are not all the same, but when you combine all the 20 tests done by 20 different translators, it adds up to a large text - translated for free. The translators think they are doing this to land a contract - but there was no contract to begin with, ever. They are just being taken advantage of.
So, I think it is only fair that there are limits on this. It is already bad enough that ProZ advertises KudoZ publicly along the lines of "Get your term translated for free by a professional translator" (which totally freaks me out).
[Edited at 2006-05-23 07:55] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 11:45
English to Russian
| Filter this asker | May 23, 2006 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote: they often don't realize that the translator asking those questions is not asking them because they are stuck
Set a filter on this aske as soon as you realize he's a cheater.
To me it is better to be abused than to miss a chance to help a colleague in a bad situation.
I once had to translate a lot of medical stuff while working for a charity close to Chernobyl zone. Luckily the doctors on both sides knew Latin. There are lots of things you cannot automatically foresee, this is life. The idea of locking anyone out does not appeal to me.
Stay well
Aleksandr
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moken
Local time: 09:45
English to Spanish
+ ...
| on pricing issues again | May 23, 2006 |
My apologies to Viktoria and Aleksander for drifting off Kudoz and back to the subject of pricing on ‘JobZ’.
A fuzzy kind of logic tells me that chances are that someone who comes to ProZ, finds a translator for tuppence ha´penny and walks away with a poor translation, will not only think poorly of the translator but also of the site itself. In consequence he may decide not to return to ProZ next time and, what is worse, he may now believe that this reflects the general standa... See more My apologies to Viktoria and Aleksander for drifting off Kudoz and back to the subject of pricing on ‘JobZ’.
A fuzzy kind of logic tells me that chances are that someone who comes to ProZ, finds a translator for tuppence ha´penny and walks away with a poor translation, will not only think poorly of the translator but also of the site itself. In consequence he may decide not to return to ProZ next time and, what is worse, he may now believe that this reflects the general standard of translation on ProZ. I think this a main concern for many site members.
Just as a reminder, top of the list on ProZ’ sales pitch to language professionals is the possibility to “outsource and accept translation and interpreting assignments”.
A Spanish saying goes “What’s food for today is hunger for tomorrow”. The site’s success is an indication that the people who run the business are far from silly. So, even if the immediate aim of ProZ is to increase income by attracting new members, and one of its main features is to offer them job opportunities, I am sure this issue is being addressed with insight regarding the possible future repercussions a poor-quality job market may have on site membership.
A further consideration is that ProZ membership is intentionally affordable, and this inevitably means that it will not only attract high profile professionals but also many of us in the lower ranks. If you are a high profile translator (HPT), or one who has worked his way through the lower ranks and found a more stable position, you might already be asking yourself what it is that ProZ has to offer. You may also want to ask yourself whether the situation is likely to change in the short term given the site’s apparent pricing strategy. From a strictly financial point of view, under this strategy an HPT’s money is worth just as much as that of more modest translators, and I have the feeling that there are many more modest translators looking for a market niche who are likely to be attracted by ProZ than high profile ones. Many of you will argue that this division is over-simplified and that most prefer to consider themselves as a sort of middle-class as far as the industry goes. I concede this may be true.
Nevertheless, my honest opinion remains that if ProZ wishes to continue being attractive to all segments of the professional translation market, which I’m sure it does, the days of further ‘tiering’, i.e. proliferation of membership categories, are not far away. Henry has repeatedly stated that this is not in the site’s plans, and I am by no means calling anybody a liar, but the truth is that market situations change and as a private enterprise, ProZ.com is compelled to explore its choices.
Álvaro ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 11:45
English to Russian
| Drastic they should be. | May 23, 2006 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote: However, most of these solutions are drastic and would make the site rather unpleasant to use.
Dear Viktoria,
The forum rules make it impossible for me to put
here links to Proz clones, some of which are a bit
ahead of Proz, the worst thing it's like in wine-making:
they got ahead of Proz a year ago while they were
still behind, by adopting a better strategy.
I am a simple guy and can make simple comparisons,
sorry. What public loo would you prefer - paid with a
strict attendant and lottsa enforced rules or a free
unattended one where just anyone feels fine? The
question os rhetorical, of course.
Stay well
Aleksandr
[Edited at 2006-05-23 12:03]
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 11:45
English to Russian
| I see it B/W | May 23, 2006 |
I would say I'd be happy with some minimum
requirements. (both on Proz and in a public loo, you
cannot make someone pay more for using it just
because he is rich, because you have nothing extra
to offer, both places.)
Stay well
Aleksandr
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 11:45
English to Russian
Please, do not be offended by the analogy,
there's nothing implied, sorry, I call it "late
ignition".
Stay well
Aleksandr
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Javier Herrera (X)
Spanish
| A classy job section | May 23, 2006 |
Álvaro Blanch wrote:
Many of you will argue that this division is over-simplified and that most prefer to consider themselves as a sort of middle-class as far as the industry goes. I concede this may be true.
All current job sections in translators' sites across the planet are lumpen. If an acceptable one emerges, there will be massive migrations to that site.
J.
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All of your last post makes a lot of sense!
| | | | Michael Tovbin
United States
Local time: 03:45
Member (2006)
Russian to English
+ ...
| Costs and perseverence | May 26, 2006 |
I apologize for not having the time to read all of the colleagues' comments carefully. Someone might have written something similar already.
To get back to the subject of rates, I am thinking that it is up to each of us who agrees that the rates in this business are getting too low, first, to figure out his or her costs (they will be vastly different to begin with but they have a tendency of converging. I have seen it happen in Moscow. It started out with low rates commensurate with... See more I apologize for not having the time to read all of the colleagues' comments carefully. Someone might have written something similar already.
To get back to the subject of rates, I am thinking that it is up to each of us who agrees that the rates in this business are getting too low, first, to figure out his or her costs (they will be vastly different to begin with but they have a tendency of converging. I have seen it happen in Moscow. It started out with low rates commensurate with the cost of living. Now, however, the cost of living in Moscow is approaching that, say, over here in Houston, if not overtaking it.) and, second, to maintain his or her prices.
If each of us does that instead of knuckling under every time under this or that pretext, the job offerors who are unwilling to pay a reasonable price for our services will have to start getting exactly what they deserve for their money and going out of business or stewing slowly in a sort of a submarket of their own.
I am not trying to say that all the colleagues that charge low rates are undeserving but those who are professionals will soon realize they deserve a better lot in life and charge accordingly.
This will not happen tomorrow, maybe not even the day after but it will happen.
As for costs, if people living in lower-cost-of-living locations really start thinking about their costs they will come to realize they are operating at a loss or at the break-even point, and that the only thing keeping them afloat is the fact that they are willing to work longer hours, take fewer days off, and forego some other things which are desirable and, maybe, even some which are necessary.
If anyone needs assistance getting started on the cost calculations, please feel free to contact me. I am sure y'all can figure it out for y'all selves, though. ▲ Collapse
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