| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | How bad is declining job after accepting it Thread poster: Annett Roessner
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| Freedom of speech | Dec 9, 2023 |
Mario Cerutti wrote: Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I am not insinuating or judging anything.
The very brief comment made by an Italian colleague in this post which, in my view, cannot be necessarily interpreted as an intention to promote "opacity", but rather an attempt to sidestep a difficult discussion with the agency in question (by the way, do translation companies in general prioritize transparency towards translators?), and the other comment about an elusive Italian translator, for which we lack sufficient context or relevant information to form our own judgment, do not grant you the authority to publicly stereotype an entire culture even by using nuances. While all of us are entitled to our own opinion on this or that culture based on direct experiences or simply hearsay, the manner in which it was expressed, yes, in my perspective appears as a suggestive besides unnecessary insinuation.
Apologies to others for keeping the topic derailed, but I cannot let attacks stand without a reply, and moderators should have stepped in to stop them already.
There is such a thing as freedom of speech, which includes the right to express things the way we prefer. Nobody has appointed you to act as speech or thought police with the authority to tell others how they must express things. We each have our own ways of expressing them and are under no moral, legal or regulatory obligation to submit to others' perceived limits for what we are allowed to say, subject to the law and, in the case of Proz, the site and forum rules, which you persist in breaching by interpreting what I said in the way you mistakenly think I must have meant.
What I said and meant was, as you can see by reading my post and sticking to what I wrote instead of mixing your own thoughts into it and then accusing me of having your own thoughts, that since I don't know much about Italian culture, I can't really judge how best to handle such a situation (which, contrary to you, I don't consider difficult at all, and for which I see no need for 'sidestepping') with an Italian agency, and then I explained my own preference, which is rooted in my Nordic culture. That way, someone inclined to use the 'white lie' method may consider that in case of a Nordic agency, it's perhaps not the best thing to do. Nowhere did I 'stereotype an entire culture'. This is your own thoughts, which only you are responsible for, and my comments were exclusively related to the type of situation mentioned, not 'an entire culture'. I must say that it is quite unprofessional to make up accusations against people by insisting that your own interpretation and thoughts overrule what the person actually said and has explained many times they meant or to think that you have the authority to tell me how I must express things. May I remind you that we are not living in the former East Germany.
The elusive Italian translator is here: https://www.proz.com/forum/translation_theory_and_practice/350182-never_ask_the_client.html
With a little bit of effort, I'm sure you could have found him yourself, but that would have ruined your 'elusive' argument.
[Edited at 2023-12-09 12:22 GMT]
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lots of backtracking, all of a sudden.... 
| | | | | No backtracking | Dec 9, 2023 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: lots of backtracking, all of a sudden....
There is no backtracking. I meant what I said. No less, no more. Since some people find it difficult to understand what I wrote, I explain it and keep telling them to stop their incorrect interpretations. Please stop the unfounded accusations. They are a violation of the forum rules.
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Thomas T. Frost wrote: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: lots of backtracking, all of a sudden.... There is no backtracking. I meant what I said. No less, no more. Since some people find it difficult to understand what I wrote, I explain it and keep telling them to stop their incorrect interpretations. Please stop the unfounded accusations. They are a violation of the forum rules.
explaining... 
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:16
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
I can't believe the amount of text and effort has gone into this absolute non-event so far. The backlash Thomas is getting here for... yes, for what exactly... is utterly ridiculous.
I think there is already work enough with reacting to what has really been said. Let's not start endless discussions about what some think might have been said. * insert huge roll eyes *
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:16
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
monica.m wrote:
Tell them you have a personal issue, you can't go on.
This is genius... Until the time comes you reallly have a personal issue and they won't believe you anymore.
I think this 'advice' definitely deserves its place in "The Great Advice For Translators Book".
| | | | Becca Resnik 
United States
Local time: 10:16
Member
German to English
+ ...
Riccardo Schiaffino wrote: kd42 wrote:
Every translator gets such a job sooner or later.
If you treat a neural network translation engine as a fast terminology server and use it wisely you will be OK with this or any other similar situation. Of course, there are many fields where neural MT will not help, but this is not the case< i suspect. If you are not familiar with the field, it's impossible to use it "wisely": LLMs tend to start answering in a useful way, and then gradually arrive at nonsensical, wrong or dangerous answers. Just an example (from Chat GTP 3.5): ... So you see: starts OK, then veers into incorrect answers, and persists in them. Now imagine that you had asked it to serve you a glossary of terms about some specialized subject - if you don't know that field very well, how are you going to decide which answers are useful, and which are incorrect?
(Bold formatting above added)
I wish I could shout this concept to the whole world. One agency sends me the occasional order for PEMT review (i.e., a human performed PEMT, and I am the reviewer). As MT has improved, I have seen the quality of PEMT plummet, particularly with regard to industry-standard terminology and phrasing. I have always been able to tell that few of this particular agency's translators have in-field experience. This clarity is magnified with PEMT, as translators have come to trust the output. Let alone all the other flaws in MT output, it still makes a lot of errors even just when it comes to technical terminology.
| | | | kd42
Estonia
Local time: 17:16
English to Russian
| In that case I am going to resort to an obscure and secret technique | Dec 9, 2023 |
Riccardo Schiaffino wrote: kd42 wrote:
Every translator gets such a job sooner or later.
If you treat a neural network translation engine as a fast terminology server and use it wisely you will be OK with this or any other similar situation. Of course, there are many fields where neural MT will not help, but this is not the case< i suspect. If you are not familiar with the field, it's impossible to use it "wisely" ...... Now imagine that you had asked it to serve you a glossary of terms about some specialized subject - if you don't know that field very well, how are you going to decide which answers are useful, and which are incorrect?
When I get a term translation from NMT, agency's termbase, or from an online dictionary which I have used for over two decades, and I have doubts (having doubts at the right time and the right spot is the most important quality of a translator), I google for it, in a variety of ways which I devised over the years, and this helps me understand that the translation is good. With Russian I sometimes see that, alas, I will have to invent an equivalent term yet again, I do, and this is also completely natural.
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kd42
Estonia
Local time: 17:16
English to Russian
| I don't know a single freelancer who learned otherwise | Dec 9, 2023 |
Becca Resnik wrote: Riccardo Schiaffino wrote: kd42 wrote:
Every translator gets such a job sooner or later.
...
If you are not familiar with the field, it's impossible to use it "wisely": ... (Bold formatting above added) I wish I could shout this concept to the whole world.
I have a Master's with honours in translation plus two more educations. Despite this, I learned 95% of what I translate on the job. I interpreted surgeries and helped to take bone marrow biopsy, I translate revolutionary software which did not exist when I was at uni, I interpret for four people speaking simultaneously because this is essential for the success of the negotiations, so I had to invent and use this technique. Of course, I never trained to do it at home, only on the job.
So, I don't really understand the concept of the "field you are familiar with". It is an imagined concept, not real.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:16
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Becca Resnik wrote:
This clarity is magnified with PEMT, as translators have come to trust the output. Let alone all the other flaws in MT output, it still makes a lot of errors even just when it comes to technical terminology.
True, but this is actually great news for real translators, who will always be needed. You see, a good translator will never trust the MT output. After all MTPE is a form of editing, which implies that a good editor will always check every sentence to see if it's correct.
It's also the reason why I don't understand people who claim that machine translation is dangerous because it would make translators lazy. If you are a professional translator, it just never can make you lazy. You have to do your job, and if you get lazy, you just don't do your job. It's as simple as that.
So I welcome all half-baked translators that deliver crappy machine translation editing work for peanuts. They guarantee that my clients eventually always will come back to me.
I will start to worry the day those half-baked translators deliver quality work for peanuts. The fact is they just don't, because they can't if they want to survive in this business.
| | | | | Human nature | Dec 10, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
True, but this is actually great news for real translators, who will always be needed. You see, a good translator will never trust the MT output. After all MTPE is a form of editing, which implies that a good editor will always check every sentence to see if it's correct.
It's also the reason why I don't understand people who claim that machine translation is dangerous because it would make translators lazy. If you are a professional translator, it just never can make you lazy. You have to do your job, and if you get lazy, you just don't do your job. It's as simple as that.
Is it, though? Rather like they say you should never give a command like ”Don’t look up!” because the first thing people will do is look up, the very existence of an existing translation (machine or human) will inevitably influence the editor. It is only human for a generalist editor to tend to trust the translator’s terminology if most of it is sound, just as it is only human for an editor to settle for a text that reads less well than if they had written it from scratch. It’s not a matter of laziness (although it could be) so much as human nature.
In my book, a “real” translator has to be one who works from scratch without this interference.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:16
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Christopher Schröder wrote:
In my book, a “real” translator has to be one who works from scratch without this interference.
Granted. I should have said "a real editor".
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 16:16
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Christopher Schröder wrote:
It is only human for a generalist editor to tend to trust the translator’s terminology if most of it is sound,
It is human to make mistakes, but trusting the translator? Sorry, that's just bad practice. The basic attitude of every editor should be to not trust the translator.
Apart from that it would be a little absurd to trust a machine translator of which you know for certain that it makes mistakes regularly.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 16:16
French to English
Lieven Malaise wrote: Christopher Schröder wrote:
It is only human for a generalist editor to tend to trust the translator’s terminology if most of it is sound, It is human to make mistakes, but trusting the translator? Sorry, that's just bad practice. The basic attitude of every editor should be to not trust the translator. Apart from that it would be a little absurd to trust a machine translator of which you know for certain that it makes mistakes regularly.
When I was proofreading at the agency, there were translators I knew I could totally trust on terminology. Others, I couldn't. They all had their little foibles, like Anne wouldn't notice that she typed bog instead of hog, Lucy inexplicably wrote the dates US style, John was a bit sloppy with punctuation. I knew what to look out for. Checking every term when it was Jolie or Ben who'd translated the document would be a total waste of the agency's time.
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Lieven Malaise wrote:
It is human to make mistakes, but trusting the translator? Sorry, that's just bad practice. The basic attitude of every editor should be to not trust the translator.
Apart from that it would be a little absurd to trust a machine translator of which you know for certain that it makes mistakes regularly.
Yes, but if you’re being paid a third of what the translator gets, you won’t actively check everything and cannot be expected to. It’s the flaw in the four-eyes system. It only works if both translator and editor are expert, specialist translators, and in that case you don’t need both.
If you were checking OP’s translation, would you really look up every single item in the list to check it was correct? That’s not the editor’s job.
I think MTPE is bound to have similar issues sometimes, even if the editor is critical and experienced. It’s the flaw (another flaw) in that system.
That said, my point was more in the area of confirmation bias. If you see something plausible, there will be a tendency to trust it. Starting with a blank piece of paper you don’t have that risk.
Back on topic:
OP, what did the client say?
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