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X Jinn
Mar 10 09:19
2 mos ago
51 viewers *
English term

much as I light of chaps

English Other Other The Spy by Cooper
I'm curious about the meaning of this phrase. The context follow below. Is it an idiom or slang?
Thank you in advance for interpreting it for me.

Caesar had now selected a piece of calico, in which the gaudy colors of yellow and red were contrasted on a white ground, and, after admiring it for several minutes, he laid it down with a sigh, as he exclaimed, “Berry pretty calico.”

“That,” said Sarah; “yes, that would make a proper gown for your wife, Caesar.”

“Yes, Miss Sally,” cried the delighted black, “it make old Dinah heart leap for joy—so berry genteel.”

“Yes,” added the peddler, quaintly, “that is only wanting to make Dinah look like a rainbow.”

Caesar eyed his young mistress eagerly, until she inquired of Harvey the price of the article.

“Why, much as I light of chaps,” said the peddler.

“How much?” demanded Sarah in surprise.

“According to my luck in finding purchasers; for my friend Dinah, you may have it at four shillings.”
Responses
3 +4 the price depends on how much luck I have finding customers
4 +2 the price depends on the circumstances
3 as much as I hope to get
3 -1 much as I light of chaps
2 the same as the number of times I show/exhibit chaps
References
Another example
Change log

Mar 10, 2024 13:05: philgoddard changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Toni Castano, Robert Farren, philgoddard

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Discussion

IrinaN Mar 11:
@Daryo I derived my idea more from the second quote from Redskins - apparently, it's not a sales pitch there but the seller is referring to the people he'll have to deal with, and using the expression to emphasize that they'll be cheapskating as far as they can. He even mentions that he is using "their own expression' to describe them.

In the given question this may not be so clear but then again, Harvey is playing nice but "oh, I'm short of cash" and after having been hit with a straight "How much?" he tries to get as much as he can, pretending that he is doing a favor while being poor. He is a peddler, after all.

I could be all wrong:-), a lot of guessing, I know.
Daryo Mar 11:
The idea behind “Why, much as I light of chaps,”
would be
"Well, (my price would be) whatever I can get"
IOW My price for this article is flexible, depends on what the client can pay.
That seems to me the most probable intended meaning.
This a reply from the peddler - so part of the trade jargon from that time.
What is the connection with horse riding chaps or chaps (people) was obvious to traders two centuries ago - today we can only guess what makes most sense from the context.

Saying to a buyer "I sell to dirt-poors / empty purses" - even if true - strikes me as a very unlikely sales spiel.
Using пустой кошелек sounds то me a bit too strong when trying to say "I can give you a good deal", but then the translator had all the text as "context" to decide.
IrinaN Mar 11:
Empty purse Пустой кошелек is a widely accepted Russian idiom equal to dirt-poor, poor as a church mouse, flat broke etc.
IrinaN Mar 11:
I dare to intervene In the Russian version of Redskins (as quoted in English by Philgoddard), the translator chose to interpret "light on chaps" as "empty purses" resulting in
"the most favorable for their empty purses." Thinking of "light on cash" expression, which may not be used as often today in favor of "low on cash", at least in US English, I'm still inclined to agree with this interpretation. It fits the context too.
Toni Castano Mar 10:
Possible interpretation A very difficult question, and in particular due to the old-fashioned English and faulty pronunciation/spelling of some words, something obviously intended by the writer, James F.Cooper. Example: “Berry pretty calico” should be in correct English, of course, “very pretty calico”, “berry genteel” should be “very genteel”, and so on.
It becomes obvious that the character Caesar, a black man, a slave, did not receive any formal education. The story takes place, I found out, during the rebellion and political revolution of the Thirteen Colonies, i.e. prior to the abolition of slavery (sanctioned in 1865 by means of the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment to the national Constitution).
As for the question itself, I might be wrong, but we should consider another possible error here, in this case committed by Harvey Birch, the peddler in the dialogue (and the main character in the novel, a spy). My reading is that he wanted to say something like “much as I like of chaps”, with the meaning “well, it depends on the customer(s)”.

Responses

+4
1 day 8 hrs
Selected

the price depends on how much luck I have finding customers

The meaning is essentially explained in his response to Sarah's How much?, i.e.
According to my luck in finding purchasers.

to light of - to come by chance, fall or happen (upon something)



https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JywNaBrw2o4C&pg=PA3447&d...

If before their goods are all sold, they can light of Chapmen to buy their Ships, they will gladly sell them also, at least some of them, if any Merchant will buy;
https://ota.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/repository/xmlui/bitstream/han...

chap - chapman, buyer, purchaser, customer

chap (n.)
1570s, "customer," short for obsolete chapman in its secondary sense "purchaser, trader" (also see cheap).
https://www.etymonline.com/word/chap

Additional references/examples


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CiVDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA313&dq...


https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-liberator/2281193/

the same day James Crabtree of Halifax and Haily the Inspector of Bradford came with a large Purse of Gold to my House and told me they would sell It for two and twenty Shillings for a Guinea. I told them I did not meddle with such Things Crabtree said he sold all he had and would do ; ! told him he might light of Chaps in a many Places by all Reports so we parted ;
https://archive.org/stream/yorkshirecoiner00lawsgoog/yorkshi...

It is now less than thirty years since dairymen stumbled into the practice of co-peration in the business of making-cheese. Previous to that time cheese-making in this country was, to say the least, a crude affair. Every farmer ran his own factory, according to his own peculiar notion, and disposed of his products as he could "light on" chaps.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/29665/29665-h/29665-h.htm
Peer comment(s):
agree Daryo : Impressive research!
9 hrs
Thanks, Daryo
agree Toni Castano : Your research is truly admirable, but why then only a middle confidence level in view of the conclusive evidence you have posted to sustain your answer?
14 hrs
Thanks, Toni. 3 is my default level here if I post an answer based on research alone. If I had been able to find a good reference for the whole phrase light of chaps, explaining how it became a set expression or saying I would have put 4.
agree Björn Vrooman : Cf. "Against the Profit Motive" (2013) by N. R. Parillo (p. 132): "...'as they could light on chaps' [i.e., as they could attract customers]" and "Englisch-deutsches Supplement-Lexikon" by A. Hoppe (p. 64) for some more intriguing insights.
17 hrs
Thanks, Björn. I too found the Hoppe reference interesting, but decided against posting it here in the EN monolingual section.
agree Yvonne Gallagher : well done on the research and Thanks!
9 days
Thanks, Yvonne
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much Alison; one thing is more of less clear: one had better avoid using this phrase in the contemporary business context to answer the question about the cost of goods/services... unless their counterpart is familiar with JFC's works. Thanks a lot again!"
-1
32 mins

much as I light of chaps

This is a very old novel written in a particular language akin to UK Cockney Rhyme. The author uses words like 'rainbow' and 'light of chaps' in an absurd context. However, the context indicates the purchasing of a pair of 'chaps', leather trousers opened out at the crotch for horseriding. I would keep the original as it is and even use this language to represent the strange personality of the peddler. Like Orwell and Burgess, English literature is filled with made-up expressions or borrowed from foreign languages.
Example sentence:

Stefani donned a black and white look that featured light pink satin open chaps — and her platinum blonde hair was seen in a high ponytail.

Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spy_(Cooper_novel)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chap

Peer comment(s):
disagree JaneD : It's an 1821 American novel, the language used is clearly nothing to do with the UK - but it is slang. For me, "rainbow" is used in a normal way here, but I can't make sense of "I light of chaps". Could be the garment, could be something else.
18 mins
Something went wrong...
1 hr

as much as I hope to get

Having scoured the online version of the OED, my only hypothesis is that the verb is "lite of", meaning "expect, wait, delay".
The OED also links to a dictionary website called "Middle English compendium", where the sense of the ME verb līten is given more broadly as "(a) To rely; trust in (sth.); to, expect or hope to (get sth.); (b) to delay, tarry, wait". The sense "to hope to get (a price" would fit well enough in the present sentence.

According to wiktionary, ME līten is a loan from Old Norse hlíta (with modern descendants in Icelandic, Swedish and Danish), and like many Old Norse borrowings it could have survived for centuries as a dialectal term in the North of England, long enough to make its way into Fenimore Cooper's 19th-century American English.

As for "chaps", it's anybody's guess if this refers to "leather riding apparel" or "fellows, guys".

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Note added at 1 hr (2024-03-10 10:53:41 GMT)
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PS: Having now re-read the passage from the novel, I would say that "as much as I hope to get for..." makes perfect sense given the dialogue that takes place in the last three sentences.

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Note added at 1 hr (2024-03-10 10:54:28 GMT)
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And my money is on "chaps" meaning "riding apparel".
Reference:

https://www.oed.com/dictionary/lite_v1?tab=meaning_and_use#38959312

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED25793

Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : I'm not clear what you mean by 'as much as I hope to get', or the connection with riding apparel.
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

the same as the number of times I show/exhibit chaps

:) According to the context
Something went wrong...
+2
4 hrs

the price depends on the circumstances

Here's an explanation. I don't know where it's from, but it could be James Fenimore Cooper again.

A child could have purchased half their stock on as favorable terms as the shrewdest man in the place. Mr. Jessup, on the contrary, varied as he could light of chaps, that is, according to circumstances.
http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/16272/64.html#gsc.tab=0



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Note added at 6 hrs (2024-03-10 15:36:18 GMT)
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Could it be something to do with this?

'The use of “chap” [to mean 'man'] is a shortening of “chapman,” an old term for a trader or dealer. The word was céapmann in Old English, where céapian meant to buy and sell, and céap meant bargaining. Yes, those Anglo-Saxon words are ancestors of our adjective “cheap,” which as you know may describe something that’s a bargain.'
http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2019/05/chap.html

Note from asker:
Thank you, Philgoddard; I think you suggestion is pretty much close to the truth.
Peer comment(s):
agree Robert Farren : Yup, I think this is it. "Light as chaps" = "according to circumstances".
9 mins
Thanks. It's very obscure, and could be a term invented or misunderstood by the author.
agree Stanislaw Czech, MCIL CL
6 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

3 hrs
Reference:

Another example

This is from The Redskins, another novel by the same author, James Fenimore Cooper. I'm still not clear what it means.

"Have you heard what the tenants of Ravensnest aim at, in particular?"

"They want to get Hugh's lands, that's all; nothing more, I can assure you."

"On what conditions, pray?" demanded I.

"As you ***'light of chaps***,' to use a saying of their own. Some even profess a willingness to pay a fair price."

"But I do not wish to sell for even a fair price. I have no desire to part with property that is endeared to me by family feeling and association. I have an expensive house and establishment on my estate, which obtains its principal value from the circumstance that it is so placed that I can look after my interests with the least inconvenience to myself. What can I do with the money but buy another estate? and I prefer this that I have."
http://textbase.scriptorium.ro/cooper/the_redskins_2/chapter...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Robert Farren : This seems to show that we're actually dealing with an expression "light of chaps". There's another example of it online from the Continental Monthly, July 1862, see below.
11 mins
agree Alison MacG
1 day 4 hrs
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