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Translating a novel: price range?
Thread poster: Fannie Poirier
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 10:13
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Understandable. Nov 13, 2016

Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
There are two reasons for this: first, I found that using dictation software works particularly well with fiction translations, and therefore I am no longer limited by my typing speed and cramped fingers. I'm using Dragon and I've not yet figured out how to make use of it with online CAT tools, but for a fiction translation I simply open two Word windows side by side, and then I read on the left and dictate on the right.

Second, when I really get into it, I experience a different state of mind, a kind of "flow" where I'm completely immersed in the subject at hand and can write away for hours. This does only rarely happen when I translate business texts, but often with novels, and makes for a big difference in productivity. To be honest, I never measured this difference and it might be not so big as I think. The fact that I like and enjoy this work so much is also to be considered, it often simply does not feel like work to me. Maybe I deceive myself here, but I still think it's a substantial difference.


I understand both points. Regarding the second point, yes, repetitive sentences are more tiring for the mind, that may explain it. Mentally it is different being inside an industrial machine for 30 days vs. being in a colorful and vivid fantasy world full of dynamic and interesting characters. It's more about subjective than objective experience of time, I guess.

Prose can also be boring, depends. In my language pair, there's no chance anybody would pay 0.10 for prose, that's just not going to happen. What's happening in my language pair is that some people are just enthusiastic (natural persons/direct clients) about possibly having their book in another language, they expect you to be enthusiastic together with them and do it for free or for a very little fee.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to German
+ ...
What rule? Nov 13, 2016

Thayenga wrote:

The famous ...

Jack Doughty wrote:

I translated a novel earlier this year, 114,000 words, and I was paid (on time, no problems) at a rate of $0.10 per word.


... exception confirming the rule.

The rule made up and followed by certain translators who work for less than adequate compensation (to put it mildly)?

[Edited at 2016-11-14 01:06 GMT]


 
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Germany
Local time: 10:13
English to German
In memoriam
Don't misquote me Nov 13, 2016

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
So what are you saying here? That you'll give away your knowledge for free because you enjoy your work?! It's work, right, you are pursuing it as a career, right? No?


[Edited at 2016-11-13 19:53 GMT]


What I said in my first posting here was that you have to aim for a sustainable hourly rate, and this is exactly what I do myself. This sustainable rate is the minimum level for my calculation; when I cannot establish this rate, I will not accept the job. What I finally charge depends on the market, as every price does. When the market allows for a much higher rate, I will of course take advantage of it. However, as others have pointed out, big budgets in novel translations are difficult to find.

Apart from that, I am at liberty to set my own priorities regarding work enjoyment and work compensation.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to German
+ ...
I didn't misquote you Nov 13, 2016

Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
So what are you saying here? That you'll give away your knowledge for free because you enjoy your work?! It's work, right, you are pursuing it as a career, right? No?


[Edited at 2016-11-13 19:53 GMT]


What I said in my first posting here was that you have to aim for a sustainable hourly rate, and this is exactly what I do myself. This sustainable rate is the minimum level for my calculation; when I cannot establish this rate, I will not accept the job. What I finally charge depends on the market, as every price does. When the market allows for a much higher rate, I will of course take advantage of it. However, as others have pointed out, big budgets in novel translations are difficult to find.

Apart from that, I am at liberty to set my own priorities regarding work enjoyment and work compensation.


I quoted your second post word for word and then added a question and raised a few points.
You certainly gave the impression that you tend to lower your price for certain book contents because you can translate "faster" and enjoy doing it so much.

Let's not forget that we are all part of the market and how we react and what we say in public could certainly influence some people's (colleagues', agencies') attitudes and opinions about our work which then aren't helpful to our profession.

There are many people caving in to cheap compensation in the book market. I know from experience. Reason enough for me to state that it's certainly wrong.

You can charge what you want but I can also raise some points when certain statements suggest "lowering prices" and I do not agree.

[Edited at 2016-11-13 21:50 GMT]


 
Fannie Poirier
Fannie Poirier  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 05:13
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Why would it be 'amateur' to ask peers about rates? Nov 13, 2016

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

(...) Regarding the poster's question, why would you be afraid of charging an adequate rate for a large text?! There are many specific challenges with regards to large texts. And it doesn't become "wash, rinse, repeat." Don't kid yourself. Unless you are an amateur, you know about that.



[Edited at 2016-11-13 19:53 GMT]


I don't understand why online forums almost always have to turn sour or attacking. I only wanted to have more opinions about how should I negociate this contract, because I have never translated literary texts before. I'm glad I asked, too, because some people say they do charge a fixed rate when translating books, while others say they don't. I guess that means it depends on people, their clients and each of their situations.

Thank you everybody for your input. I will go into negociating this contract with better assurance now (and definitely make sure I get a decent hourly rate).

[Modifié le 2016-11-13 22:45 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to German
+ ...
Clarification Nov 14, 2016

Fannie Poirier wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

(...) Regarding the poster's question, why would you be afraid of charging an adequate rate for a large text?! There are many specific challenges with regards to large texts. And it doesn't become "wash, rinse, repeat." Don't kid yourself. Unless you are an amateur, you know about that.



[Edited at 2016-11-13 19:53 GMT]


I don't understand why online forums almost always have to turn sour or attacking. I only wanted to have more opinions about how should I negociate this contract, because I have never translated literary texts before. I'm glad I asked, too, because some people say they do charge a fixed rate when translating books, while others say they don't. I guess that means it depends on people, their clients and each of their situations.

Thank you everybody for your input. I will go into negociating this contract with better assurance now (and definitely make sure I get a decent hourly rate).

[Modifié le 2016-11-13 22:45 GMT]


I didn't mean any disrespect Fannie.
As you imply in your original post, your question has to do with inexperience with such large texts. So, yes, these questions can be on your mind and on colleagues' minds who are indeed trying to do the right and professional thing. That does not make you or them amateurs. But many translators do seem to be amateurs if they staunchly defend low rates or say that you just have to work for a pittance when translating books. Those are the people who are clearly amateurs.


 
Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:13
English to German
ROI Nov 14, 2016

Apart from expecting a reasonable income for the translator, the expected ROI of the client should be considered, e.g. how much is the client intending or hoping to earn and would that justify a good rate for the translator. People do pay a lot for translation as they see the return on their investment, much of it goes to the agencies, justified, if they do the project management, proofreading, etc., but they always want to negotiate more.

Maybe translators should act a bit more bu
... See more
Apart from expecting a reasonable income for the translator, the expected ROI of the client should be considered, e.g. how much is the client intending or hoping to earn and would that justify a good rate for the translator. People do pay a lot for translation as they see the return on their investment, much of it goes to the agencies, justified, if they do the project management, proofreading, etc., but they always want to negotiate more.

Maybe translators should act a bit more business-like for themselves and don't 'give away' too much. Why try to earn just enough, when the client is making lots from your work? So maybe that easy to translate novel that sells should be a very good little earner.

Oh, and don't forget a contract and royalties.

[Edited at 2016-11-14 09:48 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:13
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Wrong adversary, IMO Nov 14, 2016

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
It boils down to the hourly rate you are aiming at. But apart from that, as Sheila said, there is no particular reason to cut back your rate just because the amount is so big. You need a sustainable income for your work, as we all do. And on top of that you have to be extra careful with the commitment and the risk that is involved in such a project that will keep you busy for months. Make sure that you receive regular and timely payment in installments.

So what are you saying here? That you'll give away your knowledge for free because you enjoy your work?! It's work, right, you are pursuing it as a career, right? No?

How you come to produce your text is your business. If a technical tool helps you speed up your work, that doesn't mean you become cheaper and give your work away for cheap or free. I am not going into discussing the reasons for that. It's pretty logical if you run a professional business.

Do you really see it that way, Bernhard? If you carry that logic all the way back in history we'd be paying an absolute fortune for every Kindle book, just because every individual copy of every book used to be written long-hand . Yes, we should receive a sustainable income for our labour, which should take into account our training, our skills and our purchases. But I don't see any justification for simply trying to wring the most money out of every word. Aside from making enemies of our clients, I can see that leading to immense job dissatisfaction.

I quite agree that there are far too many so-called professional translators who let themselves be bullied, in a way that many keen amateurs wouldn't tolerate. They have let agencies get into a position of superiority where they call the tune. When agencies demand zero payment for repetitions (that have at least to be checked), zero payment for DTP tasks, reduced tariffs for large volumes (as though we're producing widgets), and proofreading rates for PEMT of texts that need to be re-translated, etc., far too many translators meekly obey.

But I haven't seen Kay-Viktor intimate anywhere that he isn't charging a fair rate for his time and acting as a perfectly professional translator.


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:13
German to English
ATLF figures Nov 14, 2016

There is a very brief summary of a rates survey on the website of the Association des traducteurs littéraires de France
http://www.atlf.org/profession-traducteur/remuneration/enquete-remuneration/

You can also find lots of general advice and model contracts there.

I haven't looked recently, but the SFT always used to publish ver
... See more
There is a very brief summary of a rates survey on the website of the Association des traducteurs littéraires de France
http://www.atlf.org/profession-traducteur/remuneration/enquete-remuneration/

You can also find lots of general advice and model contracts there.

I haven't looked recently, but the SFT always used to publish very detailed survey information online free of charge.

I assume other information for francophone Canada is available.

€0.10/ word seems like a perfectly reasonable fee for a book translation from English to French. In general, I would say that publishing house rates seem to be generally comparable to agency rates: €0.10 or €0.12 is good, but certainly realistic in many language pairs, if you are a good match for the client or project and do not mind having a fair number of your offers turned down. On the other hand, there are a lot of self-publishers and vanity publishing houses out there that would never pay more than two or three cents per word. Other self-publishers are willing to pay significantly more than major publishing houses.

I charge the same for books as other projects: While the vast majority of my offers are turned down, there is also a significant market for German>English book translations at €0.18 to €0.20. You'll never know how much your work is worth until you put yourself in a position to make offers that only get accepted 5-10% of the time. It is also important to remember that the market for non-fiction generally seems much friendlier than the market for fiction.

Royalties can also be relevant if it is a commercially viable book being sold by a legitimate publishing house. Collecting societies also pay out significant sums in some countries. I think Germany may be a special case there, but a non-fiction book (fiction brings much less money) that is picked up by a significant number of libraries and translated by a single translator will bring you €500 to €800 on top of any royalties and fees.

I understand that the sum at your normal price of €0.10/word may look shocking at first, but you'll also be shocked by how much work it is to complete a good translation of a book.

[Edited at 2016-11-14 20:17 GMT]
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Cristian Sălăjan
 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to German
+ ...
Not a reasonable comparison Nov 14, 2016

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Do you really see it that way, Bernhard? If you carry that logic all the way back in history we'd be paying an absolute fortune for every Kindle book, just because every individual copy of every book used to be written long-hand .


That's just not helpful, Sheila. Your comparison isn't reasonable. We're talking about providing book translations for 10 cents or less in the here and now and the idea that the larger a text is or the faster we can produce it, the less it should cost. That's why I said no, don't go there. My take.
[/quote]


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
? Nov 15, 2016

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

the idea that the larger a text is or the faster we can produce it, the less it should cost


... is basic economics


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to German
+ ...
Not always applicable Nov 15, 2016

Chris S wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

the idea that the larger a text is or the faster we can produce it, the less it should cost


... is basic economics


Well, when it comes to translating, your basic economics doesn't always apply. especially, if you're applying it for all the wrong reasons.


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
The value of labour Nov 15, 2016

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

Well, when it comes to translating, your basic economics doesn't always apply. especially, if you're applying it for all the wrong reasons.


If you quote a piecemeal rate (per word), then it has to, otherwise you won't be competitive.

As others have already said, the value of your time is constant, so the rates you charge should reflect that. If something can be translated quickly, or is large enough to reduce idle time, research and admin, you should charge less per word to get the same per hour. Because if you don't, someone else will. In the real world of imperfect markets, you will sometimes be able to get away with charging more, but not indefinitely.

Believe me, I'm as stubborn and mercenary as you are when it comes to pricing, but I recognise that I'm living on borrowed time and it could come back to bite me. Sadly the rules of economics don't cease to apply just because you don't like them.


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:13
German to English
But a lot of markets really are repeatedly extremely imperfect Nov 15, 2016

Now, if some mega-agency blasts out a call for offers for a translation "German>English, 5k words", then everyone involved is operating in something pretty close to a perfect market, where converting increased efficiency into pure profit is going to mean being out of work more or less 100% of the time.

However, there are a lot of very imperfect markets out there: Let's assume that this is a biography (stated in the first post) and not a novel (stated in the title). What if the origi
... See more
Now, if some mega-agency blasts out a call for offers for a translation "German>English, 5k words", then everyone involved is operating in something pretty close to a perfect market, where converting increased efficiency into pure profit is going to mean being out of work more or less 100% of the time.

However, there are a lot of very imperfect markets out there: Let's assume that this is a biography (stated in the first post) and not a novel (stated in the title). What if the original poster has a history degree? What if she wrote a thesis dealing with a relevant region or period? What if she has published relevant translations in the field? What if this is a wealthy person's self-publishing pet project and price is not a key factor? And at €0.10 per word for English > French, what if it is just a normal and reputable publishing house happy to be quoted a normal price from a freelancer qualified for this project?

I certainly undertand what Sheila is saying, and if I have any reason to expect they might not already know it, I am open about the fact that the people who come to me can probably get a good translation for less money elsewhere and that they should seek out a number of offers. Particularly in the case of referrals, it would obviously be self-destructive not to do so and it would be guaranteed to eventually come back to haunt me. Not sharing that information would also be exploitative in a lot of situations.

On the other hand, translation fees are an insignificant item in the budgets of most projects (books being a probable exception) and consistently getting a good translation on time is a lot more important to a lot of clients than saving maybe one third of the price on a quality-sensitive and scheduling-sensitive item that makes up 5-10% of a project's total budget.
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MK2010
MK2010  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
French to English
+ ...
The other reason... Nov 15, 2016

...to sometimes charge less for a larger project, is, in my opinion, because of the financial security, so to speak. Who wouldn't rather a nice juicy project of 200,000 words and guaranteed income over a couple of months rather than a bunch of smaller projects and the stress of not knowing when your next paypal transfer is coming in? For me, that is well worth a slightly lesser charge, especially if there are other perks, such as you enjoy the job, it's not the most difficult text, and there mig... See more
...to sometimes charge less for a larger project, is, in my opinion, because of the financial security, so to speak. Who wouldn't rather a nice juicy project of 200,000 words and guaranteed income over a couple of months rather than a bunch of smaller projects and the stress of not knowing when your next paypal transfer is coming in? For me, that is well worth a slightly lesser charge, especially if there are other perks, such as you enjoy the job, it's not the most difficult text, and there might be some non financial value as well, such as your name on a book published by a very respected publisher and guaranteed to attract press coverage --which will most undoubtedly lead to more work and a larger network of clients.

But when I take on a big, long project, I always try to negotiate a flexible deadline that still allows me to accept assignments from my regular clients in the meantime. This is usually accepted no questions asked by the client with the big project.

[Edited at 2016-11-15 15:08 GMT]
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Translating a novel: price range?







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