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Marketing without sharing space with low bidders and job posters
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:58
German to English
Hire a salesperson Mar 11, 2020

I genuinely believe that there are a lot of good translators out there who are bad enough at one or more basic business skills that it prevents them from succeeding. I also imagine there must be a lot of good salespeople out there who are earning crap pay for depressing work at mega-agencies: They would probably love to become independent and some would probably have the know-how and contacts to do it successfully.

If a salesperson is drumming up work for you and paid on a commissio
... See more
I genuinely believe that there are a lot of good translators out there who are bad enough at one or more basic business skills that it prevents them from succeeding. I also imagine there must be a lot of good salespeople out there who are earning crap pay for depressing work at mega-agencies: They would probably love to become independent and some would probably have the know-how and contacts to do it successfully.

If a salesperson is drumming up work for you and paid on a commission basis, then high rates are a "win-win" situation for you and your business partner. If you are using translation agencies to drum up business for you, then you are likely to lose out, because your business partners earn their money on the basis of the principle "buy low, sell high." Their work actually consists of finding someone as good as you or better (or good enough) and who charges them less money. Theoretically, they can also find people so good that they earn more money by charging their clients much more and paying a translator somewhat more, but I think the dynamics of mass-produced translations make that case pretty rare in the real world.

If people got really smart, they would set up the salespeople's commissions in such a way that they harmonize the interests of translators, salespeople and clients: Salespeople would continue to earn money on repeat business for which they are only indirectly responsible (their work generated the initial project that allowed the translator's work to keep the client coming back for more). Then everyone would benefit from what seems to be the ideal situation: long-term, dependable business relationships where everyone is concerned to pay a little more than necessary and do a little better work than necessary, so that they don't have to start all over again and lose sleep working with a new contractor or client. It's all about nurturing "opportunity cost," or at least a firm faith in its existence.

And if you don't like salespeople, then go back to Sheila's suggestion on page 1: Even if you are completely skeptical about the real value of the hoops required to join associations, they are still a feature (productive element) and not a bug (nuisance). Legitimate or artificial, those hoops limit the number of contractors offering their services to the potential clients interested in using those associations as a tool to find contractors. I don't know if the associations succeed in drumming up enough potential clients, but at least they are pursuing a strategy that could conceivably work.
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Christopher Schröder
 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Sad but true Mar 11, 2020

As Natascha Ostroumoff mentioned
...if [the translator] has neglected to present himself or herself in a professional manner, then these qualifications will not make any difference...

A simple ‘business card’ test: if a deemed businessman talks about ‘success’, ‘averages’, ‘professionalism’, and so on, earning less than a McDonald’s guy, then...


 
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 13:58
English to Hungarian
+ ...
The more, the better Mar 11, 2020

Chris S wrote:

... why a good translator would feel a need to be on some such elite job board.

Surely, if you’re good, you won’t need to be drumming up business constantly, as you’ll be too busy with repeat business, no?


Chris, clients are changing. Didn't you read those many posts of colleagues who were complaining about that good clients turned into bad ones? I'm not talking about not paying, but forcing translators to reduce rates... So the more clients, the better...

Actually this attempt to force to reduce rates is insane, both from quality assurance and productivity aspects.
Clients should understand that cheap/cheaper rates will make good translators (I mean those who provided good quality) into bad ones.
The more a translator has to work, the less time she/he will have to concentrate on self-review/research etc.

So it is evident that quality will decline.

[Edited at 2020-03-11 10:33 GMT]


Jorge Payan
 
Robert Rietvelt
Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:58
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
@Samuel Mar 11, 2020

Samuel Murray wrote:

Robert Rietvelt wrote:
In Holland it is the NGTV. They advise prices starting with 0.23 - 0.25 euro per word and up.


This must be an unofficial advisement. Officially, they say:
The Competition Act prohibits the making of collective price agreements. Every translator ... determines his or her own rates, for example based on the desired delivery time, the level of difficulty, etc. Rates or remuneration guidelines for ... translation services do not exist; ... translators determine this themselves in consultation with their clients, which is called market forces.
https://ngtv.nl/nl/faq/tolk-of-vertaler-zoeken/tarieven-tolk-of-vertaler/ (Google Translate'd)

To become an NGTV member, you need 2 years' full-time experience as a translator. Membership costs EUR 250 per year. Clients can search for translators by language combination, native language, specialism and distance, and translators are shown in a list with randomized positions. For example, a search for English-to-Dutch translators gets me 250 results.



I never claimed it was an official advisement! I said they advised prices (based on earning a 'normal' income = incl. costs for pension, social securities, vacation, etc, etc.)

They had them published on their website. I know, because I wanted to join them years ago, but decided not to do so, because I doubted very much they would be of any use to me.

Since 2018/2019 there is a Dutch legislation (read European legislation, so there must be an European directive somewhere) that prohibit these publications to avoid cartels, collective (price) agreements by and for the self-employed. (in a nutshell).



[Edited at 2020-03-11 13:47 GMT]


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:58
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Seen it succeed elsewhere Mar 11, 2020

Michael Wetzel wrote:
If a salesperson is drumming up work for you and paid on a commission basis, then high rates are a "win-win" situation for you and your business partner.

I have a friend who is an expert in very technical network troubleshooting, the kind that internal staff at very large companies can't handle. He has collaborated with just such a salesman for 20 years or more, and the arrangement works well for both sides. He concentrates on sniffing packets, the sales guy concentrates on sniffing leads.

Not sure if it would work for translators (I'd think the salesman would need to cover multiple pairs and areas of specialisation?) but I'd be happy to give it a try if somebody offered.

Dan


Michael Wetzel
 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:58
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Why the concern Mar 12, 2020

I just wanted to mention that the need to distance myself from what I called low-bidders and job posters (I should say cheap job posters - mostly ones that ask for the best rate or DEMAND their own price) has two main reasons;

a) ethical - I just find it wrong to be possibly associated with their practices by marketing/working in the same environment - and I know, most of you will say why do you care it's just the way it is in the world everywhere. I would argue it's a bit differen
... See more
I just wanted to mention that the need to distance myself from what I called low-bidders and job posters (I should say cheap job posters - mostly ones that ask for the best rate or DEMAND their own price) has two main reasons;

a) ethical - I just find it wrong to be possibly associated with their practices by marketing/working in the same environment - and I know, most of you will say why do you care it's just the way it is in the world everywhere. I would argue it's a bit different, it's occurs under the same "roof" if you will.

and

b) economically - no good impression is gained by prospective clients/posters about our profession and business practices by looking at current job board posts demanding low rates, long payments and perfect work. They will think that's the norm.

In the case of Proz.com, I would for example appreciate it if posters and searchers are first led to a page that explains a bit more about professional relationships between translators and clients. Also, the way jobs can be posted should be changed so that inappropriate language (best rates, etc.) is avoided.

The current job board system allows anyone to demand work to be done for unrealistically low prices, and make all kinds of demands such as payment terms.
Give more room to educating users of the site and with that new translators as well. And also making it clearer that only best practices will result in best services.
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DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Mistaken identity Mar 12, 2020

Bernhard, a good name and social capital is best assets, indeed. While I have nothing against low-income households, ever-newbies, and PEMT-jobbers, one can easily avoid such a confusion:
Just don’t act like one!

Ok, what is the distinctive feature telling bottom-feeders from not-cheap ones?
It’s neither qualification nor exp for even a renowned PhD with impressive bio/portfolio and certificates may often go cheap.
It’s not references/guara
... See more
Bernhard, a good name and social capital is best assets, indeed. While I have nothing against low-income households, ever-newbies, and PEMT-jobbers, one can easily avoid such a confusion:
Just don’t act like one!

Ok, what is the distinctive feature telling bottom-feeders from not-cheap ones?
It’s neither qualification nor exp for even a renowned PhD with impressive bio/portfolio and certificates may often go cheap.
It’s not references/guarantees either for low-bidders get zillions of petty projects.
Perhaps, it must be the price, the absolute bottom* and desired maximum price range--you have NOT specified though.
Therefore, how could one possibly find it from your profile and site that you are no low-bidder for sure? Come again.

Moreover, when a smart buyer sees any price, he checks whether that seller is smart and worthy businessperson who can substantiate the value. Whatever your rates, can you explain your pricing reasonably? Give it a try.


As you said, we live under the same “roof” in the versatile world of very different and changing life, so how could you possibly avoid mis/dis/associations? just take it easy for even the dead is still subject to those
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Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 13:58
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Right now: conflict of interests, in the future: ? Mar 12, 2020

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:


I just wanted to mention that the need to distance myself from what I called low-bidders and job posters (I should say cheap job posters - mostly ones that ask for the best rate or DEMAND their own price) has two main reasons;

a) ethical - I just find it wrong to be possibly associated with their practices by marketing/working in the same environment - and I know, most of you will say why do you care it's just the way it is in the world everywhere. I would argue it's a bit different, it's occurs under the same "roof" if you will.

and

b) economically - no good impression is gained by prospective clients/posters about our profession and business practices by looking at current job board posts demanding low rates, long payments and perfect work. They will think that's the norm.

In the case of Proz.com, I would for example appreciate it if posters and searchers are first led to a page that explains a bit more about professional relationships between translators and clients. Also, the way jobs can be posted should be changed so that inappropriate language (best rates, etc.) is avoided.

The current job board system allows anyone to demand work to be done for unrealistically low prices, and make all kinds of demands such as payment terms.
Give more room to educating users of the site and with that new translators as well. And also making it clearer that only best practices will result in best services.


Bernhard, I think the problem is money and conflict of interests.
Proz site staff has clearly stated that they created and implemented the vivid orange icon of "Post a job" within the Proz Find directory (!!) because job board brings more activity, which means more money for Proz.
Since a few years now I have a feeling (and experiencing) that Proz wants to serve mainly the interests of mega agencies and some smaller (or bigger?) end-clients, that need cheap translators.
It is ironical because as far as I remember Proz started to be unique in the very beginning among other sites where translators gathered or had a directory, and Proz was mountain high from this aspect (quality, rates, directory etc.). So it didn't want to concentrate on the "low-end" and "mass-production".
Then they became big... too big and they wanted to have bigger and bigger power and money.
And things began to decline...

When there was a forum thread about productivity (maybe 2 years ago) how translators can be more productive (meaning quicker, of course on the expense of quality), it was obvious that things turned into a mass production propaganda... also cloud platforms, MT, MTPE, propaganda etc.
And I have seen that some end clients began to use them because they thought this was the norm.
This is the "path" how eu de toilette is translated as water in the toilette bowl.

So I agree with you that clients (especially end-clients) should be warned, educated what is the norm when it comes to PROFESSIONAL translation and this should be on the first page of the site, but the question is whether Proz is ready to make such a huge turn back, back on the good road.

Because right now due to being partners with Google and LinkedIn and Facebook and mega agencies or whatever companies Proz is partner with, it is acting like those imaginary octopuses with many many tentacles.





[Edited at 2020-03-12 08:47 GMT]


 
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 13:58
English to Hungarian
+ ...
What kind of partners? Mar 12, 2020

It wouldn't be a problem to be partners with these companies or other companies, if they served professional translators with decent rates and not the low-end.

 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 13:58
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Bernhard Mar 12, 2020

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
a) I just find it wrong to be possibly associated with their practices by marketing/working in the same environment.
b) no good impression is gained by prospective clients/posters about our profession and business practices by looking at current job board posts demanding low rates, long payments and perfect work.


I think you assume too much knowledge from clients. You and I know what goes on on the jobs board, but a lot of what goes on can't be seen from the outside. You can't really see "low rates" and "long payments" being demanded by looking at the list of jobs on the jobs board. We only see this when we start quoting on these jobs and getting responses from those clients in our mailboxes.

Also, having a profile on a profile board does not imply that you associate yourself with any of the other members on that board or that you consider yourself to be their peers. I think most clients would not discriminate against someone for having e.g. a LinkedIn profile simply because of their opinion of most of the other people on LinkedIn. A new client who visits your profile page will judge you by what they see. A client who is familiar with ProZ.com profiles will also judge you by what they see (although other things may impress them). If a client sees your profile and they are impressed by it and they see several others that they are not impressed with, this can only benefit you.

Perhaps I'm not the average client, but if I want to post a job on some online platform that offers both jobs and profiles, I'm not going to spend a lot of time browsing previously posted jobs. Instead, I'll focus on what I'm there for: finding profiles that match my requirements.

In the case of Proz.com, I would for example appreciate it if posters and searchers are first led to a page that explains a bit more about professional relationships between translators and clients.


What you're proposing is a gateway page. A page that contains a bunch of text, along with a button or link that takes users to the next page, which is the page that they were actually hoping to reach. The content on such pages are not read by 99.9% of people. Such pages only serve to hinder the user from reaching the page that he had expected to reach, and such pages are responsible for a lot of users exiting the process at that point (i.e. lost opportunities).

Instead of hoping that users will learn what you want to teach by reading an introduction, you can teach users if you use the right language. For example, when you visit the profile search or jobs board as a non-logged in user, translators are referred to again and again as "language professionals" and the professional relationship and skill required of translators is stressed in the wording. If you feel that this wording does not go far enough, why not make specific suggestions about specific pages, as opposed to just saying "it can be improved".

In addition, the process of submitting a job currently involves many, many steps and instructions to read, and I'm afraid that any additional instructions about how precious translators are will simply get lost in the avalanche of text.

Also, the way jobs can be posted should be changed so that inappropriate language (best rates, etc.) is avoided.


If you start denying final submission of job posts based on the use of certain keywords, low-ball agencies will simply learn to use other terms. This reminds me of a goods exchange site where no selling was allowed, and very quickly users were offering exchanges for "green paper", thus bypassing the rule against selling.

The current job board system allows anyone to demand work to be done for unrealistically low prices, and make all kinds of demands such as payment terms.


The jobs board allows job posters to specify a budget range, yes, and allows them to specify a payment term, yes, but why do you call these things "demands"? Job posters "demand" to use a professional translator and "demand" that you translate their entire file and "demand" that you do so by a certain date and "demand" a certain level of quality and "demand" that you contact them in a certain way, etc. Does the German word for "demand" mean something else than what it does in English?

step 2 budget

Jobs posters are not allowed to mention specific prices in their job posts. Job posters can specify a budget range, but the range is only shown to translators who have chosen to see it (and clients are warned that other translators will not see the budget range). Also, when typing the budget range, clients are referred to a ProZwiki page that explains how fair rates can be calculated.



[Edited at 2020-03-12 09:13 GMT]


Sheila Wilson
Vera Schoen
 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:58
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Further thoughts on posting on job boards Mar 12, 2020

Thank you for your comments. Couple of more thoughts.

Samuel Murray wrote:


You can't really see "low rates" and "long payments" being demanded by looking at the list of jobs on the jobs board. We only see this when we start quoting on these jobs and getting responses from those clients in our mailboxes.


Although that's true in a lot of cases, the problem is that the same agencies that do demand and get what they want keep coming back, doing the same thing over and over again. They do act as a template for new posters I believe. Yes, I can ignore it, yes, some agencies will see it and ignore it or might be unaffected by it and others will still contact translators directly.
But I hope you can agree that we're not talking best practices here as far as agencies and postings on job boards are concerned.

Samuel Murray wrote:
Also, having a profile on a profile board does not imply that you associate yourself with any of the other members on that board or that you consider yourself to be their peers. I think most clients would not discriminate against someone for having e.g. a LinkedIn profile simply because of their opinion of most of the other people on LinkedIn.


The platforms I am talking about relate exclusively to our business and on top of that, some have names that are supposed to imply professional/best practices. But the truth is it's laissez faire in the extreme.

Samuel Murray wrote:
A new client who visits your profile page will judge you by what they see. A client who is familiar with ProZ.com profiles will also judge you by what they see (although other things may impress them). If a client sees your profile and they are impressed by it and they see several others that they are not impressed with, this can only benefit you.


I hope that's true. But they have to make it to my page. With jobs from agencies posting on job boards, that's hardly ever the case. Some will say "you don't want those jobs anyway" - but that's exactly the problem: these jobs shouldn't go for the prices that are often demanded.
I doubt this will change on platforms with job boards. That's one reason I am always looking for new solutions.

Samuel Murray wrote:
Perhaps I'm not the average client, but if I want to post a job on some online platform that offers both jobs and profiles, I'm not going to spend a lot of time browsing previously posted jobs. Instead, I'll focus on what I'm there for: finding profiles that match my requirements.


And the ones who have done it before don't, yes. Because it's already clear how jobs are posted. I don't know any job board site that doesn't often list jobs that are "demands" ( = this is what and how I am going to pay and when! Take it or leave it)
Agencies that are new to it will certainly check it out.

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
In the case of Proz.com, I would for example appreciate it if posters and searchers are first led to a page that explains a bit more about professional relationships between translators and clients.


Samuel Murray wrote:
What you're proposing is a gateway page. A page that contains a bunch of text, along with a button or link that takes users to the next page, which is the page that they were actually hoping to reach. The content on such pages are not read by 99.9% of people. Such pages only serve to hinder the user from reaching the page that he had expected to reach, and such pages are responsible for a lot of users exiting the process at that point (i.e. lost opportunities).


New posters need to be told how professional translation services/translators work. These translators do expect something for the membership and the promise that the platform is run professionally in their interest. I would have a short text and have them acknowledge having read it before they proceed. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Samuel Murray wrote:
Instead of hoping that users will learn what you want to teach by reading an introduction, you can teach users if you use the right language. For example, when you visit the profile search or jobs board as a non-logged in user, translators are referred to again and again as "language professionals" and the professional relationship and skill required of translators is stressed in the wording. If you feel that this wording does not go far enough, why not make specific suggestions about specific pages, as opposed to just saying "it can be improved".


I think at this point it would be easier to have a completely separate section for high quality jobs or a separate site.

Samuel Murray wrote:
In addition, the process of submitting a job currently involves many, many steps and instructions to read, and I'm afraid that any additional instructions about how precious translators are will simply get lost in the avalanche of text.


Yes, except just write somewhere that the demand for "best rate ... and similar terminology" is really a turn-off for any self-respecting translator:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Also, the way jobs can be posted should be changed so that inappropriate language (best rates, etc.) is avoided.


Samuel Murray wrote:
If you start denying final submission of job posts based on the use of certain keywords, low-ball agencies will simply learn to use other terms. This reminds me of a goods exchange site where no selling was allowed, and very quickly users were offering exchanges for "green paper", thus bypassing the rule against selling.


The more ridiculous it gets, the better for everybody to see that there is indeed something very wrong.


Samuel Murray wrote:
The jobs board allows job posters to specify a budget range, yes, and allows them to specify a payment term, yes, but why do you call these things "demands"? Job posters "demand" to use a professional translator and "demand" that you translate their entire file and "demand" that you do so by a certain date and "demand" a certain level of quality and "demand" that you contact them in a certain way, etc. Does the German word for "demand" mean something else than what it does in English?


It doesn't matter that they can post "budget ranges" instead of flat-out prices - they are still defining what they want to pay. Granted, we don't have to accept it, but who do think will WIN the bid? The one closest to the bottom of the posted budget or the one that asks for as much as he/she deems reasonable?

Not sure why you refer to my use of the word demand and its possible German connotations - I simply am expressing that job posters tend to demand/impose their conditions instead of expecting reasonable quotes from professionals who are nevertheless competitive, but on an acceptable level.

[Edited at 2020-03-12 14:03 GMT]


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:58
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Good points Mar 12, 2020

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Bernhard, I think the problem is money and conflict of interests. ....

Good points above. Thanks for posting Katalin!


 
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