| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Why must I wait 24 hours before grading/closing a question? Thread poster: kd42
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| The history of this rule | Nov 11, 2020 |
Frankly, your attitude isn't very encouraging to anybody to reply and explain any further, but I will try.
This was a long time ago, and I am relying on my memory - perhaps other colleagues can pitch in if I miss something in the history.
As far as I remember, the biggest reason for putting in the rule was to discourage a "race for the timestamp", i.e. the race to provide the first answer, and put emphasis on the quality of the answers.
Before this rule was put in... See more Frankly, your attitude isn't very encouraging to anybody to reply and explain any further, but I will try.
This was a long time ago, and I am relying on my memory - perhaps other colleagues can pitch in if I miss something in the history.
As far as I remember, the biggest reason for putting in the rule was to discourage a "race for the timestamp", i.e. the race to provide the first answer, and put emphasis on the quality of the answers.
Before this rule was put in place, it happened that some people were so eager to get the KudoZ points that they would post answers that were "half-baked", or just guesses, with no supporting explanation, examples, or evidence. Some askers graded equally quickly: saw something fitting, immediately accepted it, and closed the question. Those who already saw the question and were working on more detailed answers found the question closed when they clicked on it to post an answer. This resulted not only in poor quality Glossary entries as sometimes completely incorrect answers were selected, but also caused frustration for those who were not "quick shooters" and discouraged their participation. If later somebody posted a better answer (it is still possible to post an answer to a closed question), it required a complicated and coordinated intervention from Site Support and all parties to change the entry and the fate of the points. If that was not done, it looked like the correct answer was not accepted. Again, it discouraged people to post better answers once the question was closed.
There was also room for fraud, to collect KudoZ-points in a short timeframe (two people working together as asker-answerer in rapid-fire mode - no need to explain.)
The risk of these dynamics was that these would discourage more and more people to do thorough research and post well thought-out answers, and as a result, the whole community would lose out. A well-documented answer from a specialist to a tough question or rare phrase/term can help many other people down the road, for years.
As others have explained, the 24-hour period allows people with different schedules, timezones etc. to get a chance to take a look and contribute meaningfully. This makes the KudoZ "game" more fair (there are points to be gained, after all) and leads to higher quality content on the site.
As to the askers, if the perfect answer (or a useful answer) arrives in the first 5 minutes, they can USE that answer right away, nobody stops them. It is possible though, that after 24 hours passed, there would be a better answer. Regardless whether it is too late for their project, they can still select that new answer as the most helpful, and award the point to that answerer. Or, they can give the points to the first answerer anyway. As it was explained, the askers are not required to come back, they can leave the grading to the community (with their preference marked). However, if the askers want to retain complete control over their choice on selecting the best answer and awarding the points, well, it comes with a pricetag: they have to come back after 24 hours. The system sends out reminders after a few days, with a link, so it is really not a big deal.
As others have said, it should not be bothersome to come back the next day and properly evaluate the answers and close the question. It is a give and take, and frankly, the extra time it may require is a small "price" to pay to recognize those who are willing to spend their time and share their expertise so that you could deliver a better quality job to your client.
I hope this explains. ▲ Collapse
| | | | kd42
Estonia
Local time: 18:55
English to Russian
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks a lot | Nov 11, 2020 |
Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
Frankly, your attitude isn't very encouraging to anybody to reply and explain any further, but I will try.
I hope this explains. Thanks a lot for your explanation, very clear and to the point, I appreciate it very much.
I think Proz could gain quality by adopting Wikipedia approach in Kudoz.
That could eliminate the pointless race for points.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Reply to a hidden post. |
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| Regular KudoZ users contribute to the feast and keep the place clean! | Nov 11, 2020 |
kd42 wrote:
Your logic is flawed. It is not necessary to have lunch at the same cafe for 7 years to be able to notice rotten food or a dirty table.
Please, kindly explain it to me and the other participants why this rule is in place. (I suspect that nobody here knows it.)
This explains the spirit of Kudoz as it once was... and in principle still is.
https://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/509/
I used Kudoz for years, and in all modesty was quite a points grabber myself.
To continue in your metaphor of a café, in the Scandinavian groups we would never put up with rotten food or a dirty table.
We saw KudoZ more as a place where we all contributed to the feast by sharing what we had found, and we kept the area neat and tidy.
We exchanged comments and occasionally 'disagrees' with explanations.
-- Sometimes we even thanked each other for the disagrees! The explanations were usually polite and helpful, and it was better, after all, to receive a disagree from a colleague than a complaint from a client!
-- People removed incorrect answers, so the general quality of the glossary was high.
There are no waiters or paid staff in KudoZ as in a café. Those who answer your questions are colleagues who share their time and experience, perhaps hoping to benefit later, when they have a question.
By building up a glossary for those who come later, everyone can benefit, and in fact most get more out of Kudoz than they contribute.
Although Wikipedia is a different system, you can in fact still add answers, comments or new references to a question after it has been closed and graded, and some people do.
Possibly your problem is that Estonian is not such a 'big' language, and there have been comparatively few contributions over the years, which means the glossary is somewhat limited. There is no easy answer to that, except to suggest using KudoZ and asking colleagues to use it and contribute too.
| | | | kd42
Estonia
Local time: 18:55
English to Russian
TOPIC STARTER | The escape from point-grabbing is simple | Nov 11, 2020 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
We saw KudoZ more as a place where we all contributed to the feast by sharing what we had found, and we kept the area neat and tidy.
Although Wikipedia is a different system, you can in fact still add answers, comments or new references to a question after it has been closed and graded, and some people do.
Possibly your problem is that Estonian is not such a 'big' language, and there have been comparatively few contributions over the years, which means the glossary is somewhat limited. There is no easy answer to that, except to suggest using KudoZ and asking colleagues to use it and contribute too.
The problem of point-grabbing which led to establishment of the 24-hour rule is the creation of the website's [flawed] ranking system.
Many years ago someone decided that Kudoz points are a great indicator of translator's professionalism and the high quality of his/her translations. Evidently, it is not so. I know a couple of Star-Kudozians whose test translations I checked, some of them failed the test (LISA scoring, nothing subjective). So high Kudoz score primarily reflects the person's obsession with Kudoz score, or the fact that this person has been hired by a translation agency to win points and be a frontman. So, Proz hypes the Kudoz points, the grabbers win more points, probably get more jobs or just please themselves or include this achievement in their CV.
The point is that a newbie freelancer on Proz does not have any chance to become visible on the scoring ladder in the nearest 5-10 years. The website does not offer him any other opportunity to become noticed by a potential client.
If Kudoz system and the entire website is like Wikipedia, i.e. there are various sections with continuous contributions, and the website's engine tracks all the data which the users post, it creates a lot of opportunity and incentive to contribute. Suppose that Kudoz discussion entry and an "agree" to the "best" answer adds points in your "lexicography" score which is visible in your profile. If you like to add illustrations to Kudoz or glossary, it must be reflected there too. If you publish a good How-To article and participate in its discussion, every kilobyte of your data must add to your "trainer abilities" score. This way the users are automatically and continuously encouraged to contribute high-quality content to the website. "High-quality" because disliked or deleted forum posts, hasty and incorrect Kudoz answers lower your scores. And so on.
The scores must be relative too. If we have a user with 4000 Kudoz points earned over 10 years and a user with 400 points earned within a year, these results must be somehow adjusted, as a mater of fact, the user with a lower score is "more professional" to me, because veterans often benefit from their reputation.
It is a very simple concept, I am almost sure someone is developing it already. Of course, it is a very meticulous job, but not rocket science. I am pretty sure it wont be implemented on Proz in the nearest several years, if at all.
| | | | | To your latest comments/ideas - separate issue | Nov 12, 2020 |
I am glad the issue with the 24-hour rule has been settled.
By the way, I found the original forum thread when the feature was initially announced in 2009. Just in case you are interested - it is a long thread and it is all "water under the bridge" now: https://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/136495
As to your other comments about the KudoZ system as a whole, and the points, and rankin... See more I am glad the issue with the 24-hour rule has been settled.
By the way, I found the original forum thread when the feature was initially announced in 2009. Just in case you are interested - it is a long thread and it is all "water under the bridge" now: https://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/136495
As to your other comments about the KudoZ system as a whole, and the points, and rankings, etc., you are not the first one to think about it. Please search the forums for past discussions. Some people (including yours truly) have proposed various algorithms, formulas, methods over the years to improve the points/ranking system and make it not only more fair for translators, but also more useful for outsourcers as well.
But this is a whole other topic, and should be discussed in a separate thread, not here.
[Edited at 2020-11-12 06:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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