How school prepared us for this job... or not. Thread poster: Andrew Morris
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When I said in my last post that I wasn’t aware of the existence of translation as a job while still in school, I realised now that I was of course, like you, already an experienced translator back then.
Before the communicative method of language teaching came along, most of our learning at school was based on either studying grammar rules, or repeating phrases heard in the language lab – such fascinating insights as “Monsieur Marsaud est dans le jardin.” As a method, it w... See more When I said in my last post that I wasn’t aware of the existence of translation as a job while still in school, I realised now that I was of course, like you, already an experienced translator back then.
Before the communicative method of language teaching came along, most of our learning at school was based on either studying grammar rules, or repeating phrases heard in the language lab – such fascinating insights as “Monsieur Marsaud est dans le jardin.” As a method, it was boring as hell, but still for those of us who would one day make a living out of languages, it had its own strange fascination. And it was certainly less tedious than physics classes.
Of course not everyone felt that way. In 1975, there were 150 boys in the first year at my school. All of them were forced by law to study Latin and French. By the time we could make our first choices, aged 14, for what were then called “O-levels”, the school had managed to put 140 of them off languages for life. So we were just 10 in the O-level class for the next two years. And when it came to narrow those choices further for our A-levels, aged 16, it transpired that I was the only one to choose French. A rare privilege for me, of course, having essentially private teaching in the state system, but still something of an indictment of the teaching methodology. How to turn 150 boys into just one boy in 5 years…
Anyway, back to the content of the lessons. Alongside the mechanical practice of structures and the learning of long vocabulary lists of flowers, birds and trees, a large part of our time was also devoted to translation. Both ways of course. We started with just individual sentences – completely decontextualised and designed to check nothing other than grammatical accuracy. But as we progressed through the years, the sentences turned into little paragraphs and ultimately whole passages of text.
Not once in all those years did I hear a teacher refer to anything other than getting it “right”, which meant avoiding grammatical mistakes. No one mentioned sounding natural, adding flow, getting at the underlying meaning. It was just “Take these words and write them in another language”.
What about you – in these early years as a translator, in the school classroom, did you have any inkling it could be more than merely the avoidance of the dreaded red pen?
And has teaching improved since, for those of you who are younger than me (which means most of you?) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Definitely prepared… not | Mar 5, 2020 |
Suffice it to say that I mainly translate from [English] and, most importantly, into a language [French] I was not taught in school.
Almost every subject school touched upon was turned to a boring chore. A chore that I often unconsciously (only sometimes begrudgingly, I was a “good pupil”, see), happily obliged to perform.
What I think of school today can be found in books like “Deschooling society” by Ivan Illich or “How an opinion forms in the mind. Creating... See more Suffice it to say that I mainly translate from [English] and, most importantly, into a language [French] I was not taught in school.
Almost every subject school touched upon was turned to a boring chore. A chore that I often unconsciously (only sometimes begrudgingly, I was a “good pupil”, see), happily obliged to perform.
What I think of school today can be found in books like “Deschooling society” by Ivan Illich or “How an opinion forms in the mind. Creating subject people” by Ernst Alexander Rauter.
Of course, not everything was bleak. In the advanced levels, for instance, deciphering Ancient Greek texts and breaking down their syntax was a delight. And university kind of made up for some of the earlier mess.
During my school years, I was mostly taught to sit obediently for long stretches of time and to accept uncritically (or was it called “learn by heart”?) whatever information was deemed paramount to a “schooled” citizen.
Instead, today, I am mostly working while standing; I have learned to think on my own; and, I know how to do my fucking research.
Still, there is so much unlearning left to do…
As Henri Michaux wrote in “Poteaux d’angle”:
N’apprends qu’avec réserve. Toute une vie ne suffit pas pour désapprendre, ce que naïf, soumis, tu t’es laissé mettre dans la tête – innocent ! – sans songer aux conséquences.
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Translation as a tool for language learning is a different beast than translation as an independent activity. Different ingredients, different scope, different results.
[Edited at 2020-03-05 16:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tea Komšić 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 14:35
English to Croatian
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| Zero preparation in school | Mar 5, 2020 |
As a representative of the younger generation (born in 1997), I must say that I had zero preparation for this job during my school years. I started learning English when I was 8 years old, and from then on I had English as an obligatory subject throughout my entire education. The translation was done in the same way as you mentioned, and that is to make it grammatically correct, without any meaning or anything. We were not required to translate "in the spirit of English language", but rather mec... See more As a representative of the younger generation (born in 1997), I must say that I had zero preparation for this job during my school years. I started learning English when I was 8 years old, and from then on I had English as an obligatory subject throughout my entire education. The translation was done in the same way as you mentioned, and that is to make it grammatically correct, without any meaning or anything. We were not required to translate "in the spirit of English language", but rather mechanically.
A different situation occurred when I started studying English at my university. There, the most important thing was that the text translated text sounds natural. If we would translate from my native language (Croatian) to the languages I studied (English and Russian), we had to adjust everything so it would sound more 'English' and more 'Russian'. The same thing happened when we were translating to our native language.
But particularly, my opinion is that it all depends on various different factors. It is true, that most texts we translated at the university were from the field of literature, and not from other fields. I would say that it prepared me somehow for translation, because I use many tricks, which I learned back at the university, but it didn't prepare us for the market. But then again, schools and universities never prepare you for the market. That is maybe something we have to figure on our own.
Anyway, it is an interesting topic to talk about, and it is always nice to comment it with other colleagues ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Totally agree | Mar 5, 2020 |
Jean Dimitriadis wrote:
Translation as a tool for language learning is a different beast than translation as an independent activity. Different ingredients, different scope, different results.
[Edited at 2020-03-05 16:19 GMT]
Couldn't agree more on the ideas of changing the way we are schooled. Back in my Master's in Education, an outstanding voice saying what you say was Guy Claxton. Seth Godin also has a fascinating youtube out there on what education is for.
I also agree on the two kinds of translation you mention, but think that towards the upper end, i.e. whole texts written in decent prose in the source language, there should have been at least an attempt to fuse the purely linguistic and the natural. But of course, there's no guarantee the teachers would have been good translators, so they probably didn't know any better...
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| Sad but true! | Mar 5, 2020 |
Tea Komšić wrote:
I would say that it prepared me somehow for translation, because I use many tricks, which I learned back at the university, but it didn't prepare us for the market. But then again, schools and universities never prepare you for the market. That is maybe something we have to figure on our own.
Very true, although some courses these days in the UK make a better attempt to prepare translators for the realities of working life. Once again though, many of the lecturers themselves have little experience (although I know a few translators who also lecture).
| | | | Tea Komšić
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 14:35
English to Croatian
+ ...
Andrew Morris wrote: Tea Komšić wrote:
I would say that it prepared me somehow for translation, because I use many tricks, which I learned back at the university, but it didn't prepare us for the market. But then again, schools and universities never prepare you for the market. That is maybe something we have to figure on our own.
Very true, although some courses these days in the UK make a better attempt to prepare translators for the realities of working life. Once again though, many of the lecturers themselves have little experience (although I know a few translators who also lecture).
I agree with you, and that is a good thing in the UK. In my country (Bosnia and Herzegovina), there is an attempt that all lecturers who teach at the translation programme are highly experienced translators. Therefore, they could also help students to find their way in the realities of working life. Anyway, that is just an attempt which still hasn't been realised fully.
But as long as we have forums such as this, translating is easier and more fun, because you have people that are wiling to help you
| | | | DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
| Everything is a teacher: augmented reality tests | Mar 7, 2020 |
IMO even a solid academic background is but a tiny fracture of what makes a sensible businessperson, let alone a smart and happy man. Depending on one’s view, it can be an individual part of problem or a part of solution.
First, the stultifying guessworking (tests/templates), unique Bologna sameness, competency-based work-oriented approach, and other fancy ‘new paradigm’ nonsense prod... See more IMO even a solid academic background is but a tiny fracture of what makes a sensible businessperson, let alone a smart and happy man. Depending on one’s view, it can be an individual part of problem or a part of solution.
First, the stultifying guessworking (tests/templates), unique Bologna sameness, competency-based work-oriented approach, and other fancy ‘new paradigm’ nonsense produce narrow-minded disposable personnel for specific job, not creative individuals for a rich and healthy fulfilling Life. No wonder, there are so few prosperous free*lancers, not to mention happy people...
As for educators, at least in the CIS [ex-USSR] rather many teachers and lectures are but double-rejects who (1) couldn't pass comprehensive examinations, so they had to go to Pedagogy or other no-prestigious field—and after graduating from the uni they (2) didn’t find a better job. It’s like a sacrifice vicious circle of saddened ex C-student preparing prospect C-students.
However, I feel pity for those devoted teachers who sincerely love both the subject and children, yet still have neither money nor some 5-6 spare hours a day for family.
Unlike today’s diploma mill times, it was common that senior students knew the material good enough to be able to apply the knowledge and teach their juniors. No more. However, besides socialization, logic, prioritizing, and critical thinking skills, some teachers do go the extra mile explaining it to their students that education is not for one person, but for the generation.
I’m glad many teachers encourage my curiosity, giving interesting examples, parallels, tasks, practical and interdisciplinary cases. So many things to learn and apprehend!
As far as I strongly believe there should be no ‘pure’ translators—oh my! Nevermind.
They don’t teach it at school, but my Litmus test proves if one is not ready to stand up for himself within reason, he is not ready to be a worthy businessperson yet*.
How come those clever people are ready to tear a pickpocket to pieces for a stolen dollar, but they meekly act like trained lambs when it comes to negotiating their $25,000+ lost profits or lost revenues—or even future... I wouldn't rely on such a timid individual.
Just thinking aloud ▲ Collapse
| | | | | How school prepared us for this job...or not. | Mar 7, 2020 |
I remember doing some translations at school for language learning purposes. So to answer your question: 'No, not really'.
Later I followed an official 'translator study'. There I learned the ins and outs of translating, valuable tools I am still using today, but they totally forgot to prepare me for the every day reality of being a translator! How and where to find jobs, how to deal with clients (agencies or direct), how to recognize scammers and all the other pitfalls we have to d... See more I remember doing some translations at school for language learning purposes. So to answer your question: 'No, not really'.
Later I followed an official 'translator study'. There I learned the ins and outs of translating, valuable tools I am still using today, but they totally forgot to prepare me for the every day reality of being a translator! How and where to find jobs, how to deal with clients (agencies or direct), how to recognize scammers and all the other pitfalls we have to deal with on a daily base. I had to learn it the hard way.
[Edited at 2020-03-07 17:00 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-03-07 17:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-03-08 09:49 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Yolande Hivart
Austria
Local time: 14:35
Member (2016)
German to French
| School is like being a goldfish in a pond | Mar 8, 2020 |
This is how I viewed school once i left it.
I thought of myself to be clever, I had good marks on the tests... until I went to live on my own abroad without assistance... left the pond to find the sea and understood quickly that I knew nothing and it was full of sharks school did not teach me about.
| | | | | Not only sharks | Mar 9, 2020 |
Yolande Hivart wrote:
This is how I viewed school once i left it.
. left the pond to find the sea and understood quickly that I knew nothing and it was full of sharks school did not teach me about.
... but also, corals, lots of colourful fish and plenty of blue water?
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