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你认识那个“床铺”吗?
Thread poster: Meixia Jordan
wherestip
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Conventional English usage Jan 5, 2017

David Lin wrote:

wherestip wrote:

Well, David. We'll just have to be willing to differ.


Sure Steve! Nothing's better than we agree to disagree. The truth should come out after a healthy debate. We let the readers make up their minds on the best answer, and we move on.

Take care.


David,

IMO, the issue is a fundamental misunderstanding of a very basic conventional English usage, of which Yueyin gave ample citing from multiple English dictionaries previously.



ysun wrote:

再来看看 “We’ll see” 到底是什么意思:
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ill-well-see
People say 'I'll see' or 'We'll see' to indicate that they do not intend to make a decision immediately, and will decide later. ⇒ We'll see. It's a possibility.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/see
‘Can we go to the zoo, Dad?’ ‘We’ll see’ (=used when you do not want to make a decision immediately).


可見,川普的意思只不过是“看情况吧”或“到时候再说”,却丝毫没有“擦亮眼睛等待着”或“期待着”的意思。可见,翻译不能按自己的主观臆测而添油加醋,也不能滥用成语。


ysun wrote:

IMHO, "you'll see" in this example means "you'll find out".

See Definition 3 for detail in Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary:
http://learnersdictionary.com/definition/see




[Edited at 2017-01-06 16:16 GMT]


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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A few more references Jan 6, 2017

David,

Please also reference the following dictionary definitions ...





http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/we-ll-see

we’ll see 
PHRASE SPOKEN

used for saying that you will decide later
“Can we go to the park this afternoon, Mom?”  “We’ll see.”





http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/i-we-ll-have-to-see

Definition of “I/we'll (have to) see” - English Dictionary

British
“I/we'll (have to) see” in British English

used to say that you will make a decision about something later:
"Do you think there'll be time to stop and eat?"  "We'll see."





https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/we'll%20see

Definition of we'll see
—used in speech to say that someone will have to wait for the final answer : possibly so (“Can I go to the party?”  “We'll see.”)






[Edited at 2017-01-06 00:19 GMT]


 
ysun
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“请拭目以待” Jan 6, 2017

David Lin wrote:

ysun wrote: 老问题

David Lin wrote: Two meanings available for the idom

Please beware that the Chinese idiom 拭目以待 has in fact two meanings:

1. 殷切期望



2. 等待某事实现

既然你认为 "We'll see" 是“等待某事实现”的意思,那么究竟是谁在 “等待某事实现”?是川普、记者还是该国外领导人?


新闻译成 “请拭目以待“ 。

有点像章回小说或武侠小说的写作方式:

”欲知后事如何,且听下回分解“。

这是被访问者的聪明答案 ~ 等着瞧!

哈哈!


[Edited at 2017-01-05 23:32 GMT]

既然你赞成“请拭目以待”的译法,那就意味着你认为“等待某事实现”的是 “You”(指记者等)而不是 “We”,也不是 Trump。那为什么 Trump 还要说 "We'll see",而不说 "You'll see"?所以,“请拭目以待”的译法逻辑概念混乱,所表达的意思离原意甚远。恕我愚钝,我实在看不出这种译法到底聪明在那里。


 
QHE
QHE
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Agree Jan 6, 2017

Meixia Jordan wrote:

David Lin wrote:

拭目以待 = wait and see

和 We'll see 的意思相同,成语没有用错。

https://www.moedict.tw/~拭目以待


“拭目以待”一词含有期待某事发生的意味,在德文解释'die Entwicklung aufmerksam verfolgen'中,aufmerksam这一词也强调了关注/期盼的意味 。
而“We'll see”则往往没有那份期待,而是maybe, maybe not。
比如我问朋友是否有信心通过考试,他回答说 We'll see,那就表明他认为自己可能顺利考过,也可能考不过。
在孙先生提出的记者问川普是否可能与某人会面的例子中,川普回答的“We’ll see”不应该翻译成“拭目以待”,而是“也许吧”的意思,这是一个模棱两可的回答。


同意 Meixia 所说的。况且,记者问及的问题是一种假设的情形,假设川普就职以后可能发生的情况 (川普在就任前不会与任何外国领导人会晤)。对一个没有定数的假设他怎么可能 “拭目以待” 呢?

[Edited at 2017-01-06 04:56 GMT]


 
coolfool
coolfool
China
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Depends largely on the context and how to be undertood by the listeners Jan 6, 2017

1. Dictionaries couldn't possibly cover all meaning in real life.

2. When Mr. Trump said "We'll see", he was, and still is, the President-elect, instead of the sitting President, of the United States of America.

3.1 "Can I go to the party?" "We'll see [= I'll decide later]."
到时候(等进驻白宫)再说吧

3.2 used for saying that you are not able to decide now Ex: How long can you stay? I'll have to see.
尚未决定,无可奉告。�
... See more
1. Dictionaries couldn't possibly cover all meaning in real life.

2. When Mr. Trump said "We'll see", he was, and still is, the President-elect, instead of the sitting President, of the United States of America.

3.1 "Can I go to the party?" "We'll see [= I'll decide later]."
到时候(等进驻白宫)再说吧

3.2 used for saying that you are not able to decide now Ex: How long can you stay? I'll have to see.
尚未决定,无可奉告。(先要全盘了解情况后,再根据当时的具体局势再作决定)

3.3 "Can I go to the party?" "We'll see." [= maybe, perhaps]
有可能
也许吧

3.4 to arrive at a conclusion through observation and experience Ex: I can't give you an answer yet, but we shall see.
看情形再说吧(还没有做最终决定)

3.5.1 we'll see: we shall await the outcome (freq. indicating an unwillingness to act at once)
(还没拿定主意)看看再说吧
3.5.2 You, not I, shall await the outcome
(胸有成竹 see 2)你等着看结果吧

3.6.1 (We're) to learn or find out (sth.) esp. by looking or waiting
走着瞧吧
3.6.2 You, not I, are to learn or find out (sth.) esp. by looking or waiting
(决策已定 see 2)到时就知道了

3.7 ...

4. Experience and experiences tell me, native English speakers, like Chinese, sometimes say we, but actually mean you. That's possibly the rub. Am I all wet? Most probably, I fear.
Collapse


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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翻译也得讲点逻辑 Jan 6, 2017

QHE wrote:

Meixia Jordan wrote:

David Lin wrote:

拭目以待 = wait and see

和 We'll see 的意思相同,成语没有用错。

https://www.moedict.tw/~拭目以待


“拭目以待”一词含有期待某事发生的意味,在德文解释'die Entwicklung aufmerksam verfolgen'中,aufmerksam这一词也强调了关注/期盼的意味 。
而“We'll see”则往往没有那份期待,而是maybe, maybe not。
比如我问朋友是否有信心通过考试,他回答说 We'll see,那就表明他认为自己可能顺利考过,也可能考不过。
在孙先生提出的记者问川普是否可能与某人会面的例子中,川普回答的“We’ll see”不应该翻译成“拭目以待”,而是“也许吧”的意思,这是一个模棱两可的回答。


同意 Meixia 所说的。况且,记者问及的问题是一种假设的情形,假设川普就职以后可能发生的情况 (川普在就任前不会与任何外国领导人会晤)。对一个没有定数的假设他怎么可能 “拭目以待” 呢?

[Edited at 2017-01-06 04:56 GMT]

完全同意。关于“拭目以待”,Meixia 提供的德文解释 'die Entwicklung aufmerksam verfolgen' 与汉典的解释是一致的,即“对事情发展密切关注”。这是“拭目以待”的基本含意。对于一种假设的情况,川普怎么可能会说“我们将密切关注事情发展”或“请你们密切关注事情发展”呢?所以,翻译也得讲点逻辑。川普的聪明之处就在于,用一个模棱两可的回答,应付了一个棘手的问题。

http://www.zdic.net/c/d/8a/150090.htm
◎ 拭目以待 shìmùyǐdài
[wait and see] 擦亮眼眼看着。形容对事情发展密切关注
何去何从,我们将拭目以待


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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Hedging Jan 6, 2017

ysun wrote:

川普的聪明之处就在于,用一个模棱两可的回答,应付了一个棘手的问题。



Agree, it's called hedging, a typical politician's tactic to things they don't have an answer to.


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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Sometimes when speaking to children or people who are ill Jan 6, 2017

coolfool wrote:

4. Experience and experiences tell me, native English speakers, like Chinese, sometimes say we, but actually mean you.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/we
We
2 used by a writer or speaker to include themselves and their readers or listeners
As we saw in Chapter 4, slavery was not the only cause of the Civil War.
...
5 spoken sometimes used to mean ‘you’ when speaking to children or people who are ill
How are we feeling today, Mr Robson?


[Edited at 2017-01-06 16:52 GMT]


 
ysun
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当选后说话就不能随心所欲了 Jan 6, 2017

wherestip wrote:

ysun wrote:

川普的聪明之处就在于,用一个模棱两可的回答,应付了一个棘手的问题。



Agree, it's called hedging, a typical politician's tactic to things they don't have an answer to.

What Trump actually said is “I'm not meeting with anybody until after January 20th because it's a little bit inappropriate from a protocol standpoint. But we'll see." Hence, some people think that Trump has left open the possibility, but some people think that Trump seems to rule out the possibility. At least, we can say for sure that Trump has ruled out the possibility of meeting with that foreign leader when she makes transit stops in the United States on January 7 and January 13.


 
Fargoer
Fargoer
Canada
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川普的逻辑 Jan 7, 2017

ysun wrote:

wherestip wrote:

ysun wrote:

川普的聪明之处就在于,用一个模棱两可的回答,应付了一个棘手的问题。



Agree, it's called hedging, a typical politician's tactic to things they don't have an answer to.

What Trump actually said is “I'm not meeting with anybody until after January 20th because it's a little bit inappropriate from a protocol standpoint. But we'll see." Hence, some people think that Trump has left open the possibility, but some people think that Trump seems to rule out the possibility. At least, we can say for sure that Trump has ruled out the possibility of meeting with that foreign leader when she makes transit stops in the United States on January 7 and January 13.


我倒是觉得川普的逻辑本身就有点问题。他说,就职前不会见任何人,因为这在政治上有些不妥。那么就职后就无不妥了吗?应该更加不妥才对。为什么还要说“But we'll see”呢?难道就职之前也存在变数?这可真要“拭目以待”了。


 
Fargoer
Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 11:41
English to Chinese
稍有不同 Jan 7, 2017

wherestip wrote:

ysun wrote:

川普的聪明之处就在于,用一个模棱两可的回答,应付了一个棘手的问题。



Agree, it's called hedging, a typical politician's tactic to things they don't have an answer to.


我觉得,川普的聪明就在于,用一个逻辑含浑的回答,送出了一个明确的讯息:尽管政治上有些不妥,我如果想做也可以做。

这和谈论“XX中国”问题时的态度异曲同工。

“拭目以待”的译法,可能是想把川普的意思挑明。显然是过分了。

到底怎样译好呢?


[修改时间: 2017-01-07 21:00 GMT]


 
coolfool
coolfool
China
Local time: 01:41
Chinese to English
Sometimes the 'we' is you excluding me or is me not including you. It all depends. Jan 7, 2017

1. Repeat. Dictionaries couldn't possibly cover all meaning in real life.

2. Our vision of Victoria might be of an elderly matron, dressed in dour black, unsmiling and pronouncing that "we are not amused".
- How do you solve a problem like Victoria? p42, Royal Women, BBC History 2016

the royal "we":
2.1 the word "we" used by a king or queen instead of "I" Ex: When Queen Victoria said, "We are not amused," she was usi
... See more
1. Repeat. Dictionaries couldn't possibly cover all meaning in real life.

2. Our vision of Victoria might be of an elderly matron, dressed in dour black, unsmiling and pronouncing that "we are not amused".
- How do you solve a problem like Victoria? p42, Royal Women, BBC History 2016

the royal "we":
2.1 the word "we" used by a king or queen instead of "I" Ex: When Queen Victoria said, "We are not amused," she was using the royal "we."
2.2 joc. monarch's use of the plural pronoun to refer to himself or herself Ex: 'We've never liked Italy.' 'Is that the royal 'we'? I think Italy's great!'

3. Venal mandarins on mainland China cry out for our Learn[ing] from Comrade Lei Feng. Needless to say, what they do mean is you, exclusive of themselves, work day in, day out hopefully free of charge. At the same time, he'll try by hook or by crook to lay their hands on whatever in reach.
Collapse


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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the royal "we" Jan 7, 2017

coolfool wrote:

1. Repeat. Dictionaries couldn't possibly cover all meaning in real life.

2. Our vision of Victoria might be of an elderly matron, dressed in dour black, unsmiling and pronouncing that "we are not amused".
- How do you solve a problem like Victoria? p42, Royal Women, BBC History 2016

the royal "we":
2.1 the word "we" used by a king or queen instead of "I" Ex: When Queen Victoria said, "We are not amused," she was using the royal "we."
2.2 joc. monarch's use of the plural pronoun to refer to himself or herself Ex: 'We've never liked Italy.' 'Is that the royal 'we'? I think Italy's great!'

3. Venal mandarins on mainland China cry out for our Learn[ing] from Comrade Lei Feng. Needless to say, what they do mean is you, exclusive of themselves, work day in, day out hopefully free of charge. At the same time, he'll try by hook or by crook to lay their hands on whatever in reach.

If you ever read Explanation 4 at the link of the Longman Dictionary I provided above, you would have found that the definition of the royal "we" is indeed covered by the dictionary. However, this definition has nothing to do with "We'll see" we've been discussing.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/we
4 formal used by a king or queen to refer to himself or herself

The sentence “Learn from Comrade Lei Feng” is in imperative mood. The hidden subject is truly you, not we.


 
ysun
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敷衍之词 Jan 7, 2017

Fargoer wrote:

我倒是觉得川普的逻辑本身就有点问题。他说,就职前不会见任何人,因为这在政治上有些不妥。那么就职后就无不妥了吗?应该更加不妥才对。为什么还要说“But we'll see”呢?难道就职之前也存在变数?这可真要“拭目以待”了。

他说 “But we'll see”,是不想当时就把话说绝。不过,既然他说了就职前不会见任何人,他就不便再食言。但他也许会采取某种变通做法,例如找个人替他见一下。当然,这就不是该我们操心的事情了。


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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尘埃落定 Jan 8, 2017

Fargoer wrote:

我觉得,川普的聪明就在于,用一个逻辑含浑的回答,送出了一个明确的讯息:尽管政治上有些不妥,我如果想做也可以做。

这和谈论“XX中国”问题时的态度异曲同工。

“拭目以待”的译法,可能是想把川普的意思挑明。显然是过分了。

到底怎样译好呢?


[修改时间: 2017-01-07 21:00 GMT]

川普说 ”we'll see",只是针对他就职前这段时间,与将来无关。无论是“让我们拭目以待”还是“请拭目以待”的译法,都掺杂了译者自己的主观愿望或主观推测。这正是违反翻译原则的事情。因此,我完全同意你“显然是过分了”的结论。当原话模棱两可时,译者不应加以澄清,即所谓“模糊来,模糊去”。

有一个细节也许可以帮我们更好地理解 “we'll see" 的含意。当记者在年前问川普时,他甚至对此事毫不知晓。他首先反问道,“Stops by here?” “In the United States or in Palm Beach? Nobody’s ever mentioned that to me.” 对于一件刚听说的问题,他怎么可能会如此郑重其事,说“让我们拭目以待”或“请拭目以待”呢?

今天的最新消息是,“Trump transition spokeswoman Jessica Ditto said in an email Saturday that the president-elect would not be meeting with the xxxxxnese leader while she is in the U.S., nor will members of his transition team”。至于哪个议员或民间人士是否与她相见,那就与川普无关了。因此,我想这件事情已经尘埃落定了。


 
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你认识那个“床铺”吗?






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