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經典誤譯
Thread poster: jyuan_us
wherestip
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Perhaps partly attributable to the Internet? May 21, 2017

QHE wrote:

wherestip wrote: 7 decades is a long stretch



I agree with you on this point, Steve.

IMHO, a valid time frame of the aforementioned language deterioration has to be based on direct observations and actual comparisons, rather than indirect specious reasoning.



IMO, this deterioration might well have been exacerbated by the advent of the Internet, which at the earliest could be dated to the early or mid 1990s. For me personally, I only noticed the phenomenon of this language deterioration around 2005 when China's rise started to grab headlines and I simultaneously started to pay attention to what was happening over there (which BTW, roughly coincides with the time I discovered the ProZ.com website). Back then, the deterioration was noticeable but not too severe ... Sad to say, it's all but gone downhill ever since.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

Internet use grew rapidly in the West from the mid-1990s and from the late 1990s in the developing world.[4] In the two decades since then, Internet use has grown 100-times, measured for the period of one year, to over one third of the world population.[5][6] Most traditional communications media, including telephony, radio, television, paper mail and newspapers are being reshaped or redefined by the Internet, giving birth to new services such as email, Internet telephony, Internet television, online music, digital newspapers, and video streaming websites. Newspaper, book, and other print publishing are adapting to website technology, or are reshaped into blogging, web feeds and online news aggregators. The Internet has enabled and accelerated new forms of personal interactions through instant messaging, Internet forums, and social networking. Online shopping has grown exponentially both for major retailers and small businesses and entrepreneurs, as it enables firms to extend their "brick and mortar" presence to serve a larger market or even sell goods and services entirely online. Business-to-business and financial services on the Internet affect supply chains across entire industries.




[Edited at 2017-05-22 04:42 GMT]


 
QHE
QHE
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The Drawback May 23, 2017

wherestip wrote: Perhaps partly attributable to the Internet?

IMO, this deterioration might well have been exacerbated by the advent of the Internet, which at the earliest could be dated to the early or mid 1990s. For me personally, I only noticed the phenomenon of this language deterioration around 2005 when China's rise started to grab headlines and I simultaneously started to pay attention to what was happening over there (which BTW, roughly coincides with the time I discovered the ProZ.com website). Back then, the deterioration was noticeable but not too severe ... Sad to say, it's all but gone downhill ever since.


Steve,

It’s very true indeed. I started to notice the progressive deterioration occurring in the usage after the 2008 Beijing Olympics; and as you said, it's all but gone downhill ever since. Of course, languages change and diverge incessantly; but it is disturbing that many netizens have no reverence for common usage while mindlessly following the “dumbing down” usage as fads in social interactions.

[Edited at 2017-05-23 02:46 GMT]


 
Kenneth Woo
Kenneth Woo
China
Local time: 16:50
English to Chinese
中文敗壞,始於何時? May 29, 2017

我在前帖中業已言明,由於討論此一問題不免涉及政治,故不欲細說,不想QHE先生認為我是憑空臆斷。有鑑於此,我粗說一下,不當之處,敬請各位指正。

我認為,中文墮落到今日這般境地,原因蓋有五點:(一)Maoist Newspeak問世,舉國誦習;(二)文化浩劫,傳統斷絕;(三)教育不堪,重英文輕國文;(四)翻譯大興,譯者不濟;(五)網路世界,鄙語橫行。... See more
我在前帖中業已言明,由於討論此一問題不免涉及政治,故不欲細說,不想QHE先生認為我是憑空臆斷。有鑑於此,我粗說一下,不當之處,敬請各位指正。

我認為,中文墮落到今日這般境地,原因蓋有五點:(一)Maoist Newspeak問世,舉國誦習;(二)文化浩劫,傳統斷絕;(三)教育不堪,重英文輕國文;(四)翻譯大興,譯者不濟;(五)網路世界,鄙語橫行。

這五點,若展開細說,可寫幾本書。我沒有時間,只想略談第一個原因。首先聲明,「Maoist Newspeak」一詞不是我的發明,如果我記得沒錯,此詞出自漢學家Perry Link先生。大家稍加留意就能發現,自鼎革之後,政府強力推廣的是一種迥異傳統文言與白話的新語言。這種語言,人人都見過,就是人民日報、新聞聯播、各級政府所用的那種語言。政府把持全國報紙、廣播、電視、出版社,數十年來一直把大陸百姓泡在這種新語言裏。其極盛時之文革時代,舉國癲狂,書刊(甚至課本)、標語、歌曲、劇本全以革命語言(Maoist Newspeak之頂級形式)寫成,人人爭誦紅寶書,爭說爭寫革命語。文革去今已有四十年,但時至今日,這種語言依舊隨處可見,充斥報章、政府文告、新聞報道,以及學校、醫院、事業單位、國企私企之文件與宣傳資料。Newspeak的特點是機械化,程式化,豪情萬丈,而又空洞無物,且浮泛枝蔓,蠻橫粗暴,邏輯錯亂,混淆概念【注一】,並混雜大量俚俗之言【注二】、偽哲學術語【注三】、軍事術語【注四】。此種語言在推廣之初,其可怕之效力未必顯著,但全國宣傳機器大開,運動接二連三,三五年之後,民眾的語言不受影響,絕無可能。或許您會說,你不能拿出當時普通讀書人寫的文章作憑據,何以下此論斷?其實,雖然拿不出,我下這個論斷依舊很有把握。這就好比一個人從懸崖跳下,我雖然未親眼目睹他跳下之後的遭遇,但憑我的經驗,此人非死即殘,甚至可能屍骨無存。

政府強力推行Maoist Newspeak七十年,成績斐然,一般人根本不知自己已經身中其毒,更未意識到自己隨處看到的是政府心懷叵測而炮製的一種新語言。這種語言十年八載不會從大陸的公共語文退出,不知還要禍害中文多少年。

有興趣的同人可以看看吉博士的大作《Linguistic Engineering: Language and Politics in Mao's China》。此書專論Maoist Newspeak。慕容雪村先生在《紐約時報》撰有〈中國語言風格的墮落〉一文,亦可一看,連接:https://cn.nytimes.com/opinion/20150528/c28murong/。
注一:如故意將「黨」、「國」、「政府」三者混為一談;將「批評」與「詆毀」(即所謂「抹黑」或「黑」)混為一談)。
注二:如「抓」、「搞」、「幹」、「吃共產黨的飯,砸共產黨的鍋」、「一把手」、「尖子」。
注三:如「精神文明」、「物質文明」、「存在」、「主要矛盾」、「辯證看待」、「本質屬性」。
注四:如「作思想工作」、「統戰工作」、「接班人」、「走群眾路線」、「打一場某某攻堅戰」。

附文革時代課本圖片:http://blog.wenxuecity.com/blog/frontend.php?act=articlePrint&blogId=70464&date=201607&postId=1109243

...........................................................................................................
昨晚行文倉促,以致文句粗糙,已稍加修改。

又,下午在知乎上看到幾篇文章,也是專論大陸的Newspeak,頗值一看,網址:http://www.zhishihao.com/xue/show/96133

[Edited at 2017-05-30 13:43 GMT]
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wherestip
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Personal experience May 30, 2017

Kenny,

Without touching on anything politically sensitive, I just want to say that after viewing a video clip of an interview of Dr. Perry Link, I got to know a little bit about his background. He said he started living in Mainland China from 1979, 1980. So I guess as one's experience in Mainland China goes, he and I actually crossed paths - when he arrived, I left.

Another thing I'd like to point out is
... See more
Kenny,

Without touching on anything politically sensitive, I just want to say that after viewing a video clip of an interview of Dr. Perry Link, I got to know a little bit about his background. He said he started living in Mainland China from 1979, 1980. So I guess as one's experience in Mainland China goes, he and I actually crossed paths - when he arrived, I left.

Another thing I'd like to point out is the birth date of 《新闻联播》. It actually didn't exist until the beginning of 1978.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinwen_Lianbo
Xinwen Lianbo (simplified Chinese: 新闻联播; traditional Chinese: 新聞聯播; pinyin: Xīnwén Liánbō, literally "News Simulcast") is a daily news programme produced by China Central Television (CCTV). It is shown simultaneously by all local TV stations in mainland China, making it one of the world's most-watched programmes. It has been broadcast since 1 January 1978.
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Kenneth Woo
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《新聞聯播》的開播時間 May 30, 2017

Steve前輩:

新聞聯播(節目組),我只是用以作例子,並非說Newspeak是自《新聞聯播》開播而始。Newspeak是仿照蘇聯紅色語言而造,1949年之前可能【吉博士書中有所提及,如果我沒記錯。我記性不好】就已問世,但當時民國政府尚在大陸,未得舉國推廣。電視普及之前,傳播Newspeak的主要工具應當是書刊、報紙、政府文告、標語、歌曲、戲劇、語錄。

[Edited at 2017-05-30 14:08 GMT]


 
wherestip
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《艳阳天》 May 30, 2017

Kenny,

介绍你看本小说,有时间不妨随便浏览一下,也许可以使你改变对五、六十年代国人语文水平的看法。 虽然书中免不了谈及阶级斗争之类,但作者的语言造诣仍属非常出色的,当时公认他描述事件形容生动、语言朴实。


 
pkchan
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Newspeak 就是黨八股 May 30, 2017

新華文體Newspeak – China Heritage
chinaheritage.net/reader/keywords/新華文體-newspeak/
Translate this page
Jump to Party & Other Eight-legged Essays 党八股 - As we have argued, New China Newspeak evolved ... (or 'Party Eight-legged Essays' 党八股).


 
wherestip
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Parroting political rhetoric May 30, 2017

Kenny,

I didn't live through the '60s and '70s completely oblivious; I know all about political propaganda, etc.. However, I believe Mainland China's "newspeak" belongs to a different category of ills than what mainly ails today's Chinese language. IMO, most of the problematic usages your blog discusses doesn't fit into the category of "newspeak" either.

FWIW, I too am not good at memorizing stuff. I actually lived through the Cultural Revolution without ever memor
... See more
Kenny,

I didn't live through the '60s and '70s completely oblivious; I know all about political propaganda, etc.. However, I believe Mainland China's "newspeak" belongs to a different category of ills than what mainly ails today's Chinese language. IMO, most of the problematic usages your blog discusses doesn't fit into the category of "newspeak" either.

FWIW, I too am not good at memorizing stuff. I actually lived through the Cultural Revolution without ever memorizing any of the political rhetoric requisite of the populace, including quotes from Mao's《老三篇》.  
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Fargoer
Fargoer
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这样谈下去会违规 May 31, 2017

Kenneth Woo wrote:

我在前帖中業已言明,由於討論此一問題不免涉及政治,故不欲細說,不想QHE先生認為我是憑空臆斷。有鑑於此,我粗說一下,不當之處,敬請各位指正。

我認為,中文墮落到今日這般境地,原因蓋有五點:(一)Maoist Newspeak問世,舉國誦習;(二)文化浩劫,傳統斷絕;(三)教育不堪,重英文輕國文;(四)翻譯大興,譯者不濟;(五)網路世界,鄙語橫行。

這五點,若展開細說,可寫幾本書。我沒有時間,只想略談第一個原因。首先聲明,「Maoist Newspeak」一詞不是我的發明,如果我記得沒錯,此詞出自漢學家Perry Link先生。大家稍加留意就能發現,自鼎革之後,政府強力推廣的是一種迥異傳統文言與白話的新語言。這種語言,人人都見過,就是人民日報、新聞聯播、各級政府所用的那種語言。政府把持全國報紙、廣播、電視、出版社,數十年來一直把大陸百姓泡在這種新語言裏。其極盛時之文革時代,舉國癲狂,書刊(甚至課本)、標語、歌曲、劇本全以革命語言(Maoist Newspeak之頂級形式)寫成,人人爭誦紅寶書,爭說爭寫革命語。文革去今已有四十年,但時至今日,這種語言依舊隨處可見,充斥報章、政府文告、新聞報道,以及學校、醫院、事業單位、國企私企之文件與宣傳資料。Newspeak的特點是機械化,程式化,豪情萬丈,而又空洞無物,且浮泛枝蔓,蠻橫粗暴,邏輯錯亂,混淆概念【注一】,並混雜大量俚俗之言【注二】、偽哲學術語【注三】、軍事術語【注四】。此種語言在推廣之初,其可怕之效力未必顯著,但全國宣傳機器大開,運動接二連三,三五年之後,民眾的語言不受影響,絕無可能。或許您會說,你不能拿出當時普通讀書人寫的文章作憑據,何以下此論斷?其實,雖然拿不出,我下這個論斷依舊很有把握。這就好比一個人從懸崖跳下,我雖然未親眼目睹他跳下之後的遭遇,但憑我的經驗,此人非死即殘,甚至可能屍骨無存。

政府強力推行Maoist Newspeak七十年,成績斐然,一般人根本不知自己已經身中其毒,更未意識到自己隨處看到的是政府心懷叵測而炮製的一種新語言。這種語言十年八載不會從大陸的公共語文退出,不知還要禍害中文多少年。

有興趣的同人可以看看吉博士的大作《Linguistic Engineering: Language and Politics in Mao's China》。此書專論Maoist Newspeak。慕容雪村先生在《紐約時報》撰有〈中國語言風格的墮落〉一文,亦可一看,連接:https://cn.nytimes.com/opinion/20150528/c28murong/。
注一:如故意將「黨」、「國」、「政府」三者混為一談;將「批評」與「詆毀」(即所謂「抹黑」或「黑」)混為一談)。
注二:如「抓」、「搞」、「幹」、「吃共產黨的飯,砸共產黨的鍋」、「一把手」、「尖子」。
注三:如「精神文明」、「物質文明」、「存在」、「主要矛盾」、「辯證看待」、「本質屬性」。
注四:如「作思想工作」、「統戰工作」、「接班人」、「走群眾路線」、「打一場某某攻堅戰」。

附文革時代課本圖片:http://blog.wenxuecity.com/blog/frontend.php?act=articlePrint&blogId=70464&date=201607&postId=1109243

...........................................................................................................
昨晚行文倉促,以致文句粗糙,已稍加修改。

又,下午在知乎上看到幾篇文章,也是專論大陸的Newspeak,頗值一看,網址:http://www.zhishihao.com/xue/show/96133

[Edited at 2017-05-30 13:43 GMT]


我理解您的立场,但这里真的不是谈这些的好地方。


 
QHE
QHE
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Local time: 04:50
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Different Category May 31, 2017

QHE wrote: Agree
wherestip wrote: 7 decades is a long stretch



I agree with you on this point, Steve.

IMHO, a valid time frame of the aforementioned language deterioration has to be based on direct observations and actual comparisons, rather than indirect specious reasoning.


Kenny,

我只是提出了自己对观察语言现象的看法,不是针对个人。很抱歉让你误会了。



wherestip wrote:

However, I believe Mainland China's "newspeak" belongs to a different category of ills than what mainly ails today's Chinese language.


Steve,

You’re absolutely right. According to Merriam-Webster, "Newspeak" is a “propagandistic language marked by euphemism, circumlocution, and the inversion of customary meanings”; it “was coined by George Orwell in his 1949 anti-utopian novel 1984.”

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/newspeak

What Is Newspeak and Is It Now A Reality?
https://www.sporcle.com/g00/blog/2017/02/what-is-newspeak-is-it-reality/?i10c.referrer=https://www.google.com/


 
pkchan
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洋人翻譯出洋相 May 31, 2017

問題是"網" "綱"不分。

毛主席语录

(階)级斗争是纲
纲举目张

Class struggle is a net
Cast wide all is ensnared
http://chinaheritage.net/reader/keywords/新華文體-newspeak/?lang=zh

[Edited at 2017-05-31 18:07 GMT]


 
Kenneth Woo
Kenneth Woo
China
Local time: 16:50
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不宜談不宜談 Jun 1, 2017

Fargoer先生所言甚是。此一話題涉及的事太過敏感,也極易引發爭論,此地不宜談。

Steve前輩:謝謝推薦,《艷陽天》這書,我有空找來看看。恕我直言,單憑一本書,很難說服我。我原本的觀點是,Newspeak對大陸人的整體國文水平很有影響。要證明之,必須有充足的語料,由於我沒有,暫時不想多談這個問題,況此地也不宜談。將來要是能收集到足夠的語料,我或寫幾篇網誌,談談自己的看法。

至於我博客裏論及的一些中文問題,確實大多與Newspeak無關。我寫得慢,寫得少,才學更是粗淺(非自謙之詞),不能一下子將中文的種種問題照顧周全。以後當注意收集語料,談談Newspeak。

QHE先生:呵呵,我的確有所誤會,不過說明白就沒事啦。其實討論問題,意見不一很平常,有禮有節,不傷和氣就好。


 
wherestip
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Political rhetoric Jun 1, 2017

Kenneth Woo wrote:


Steve前輩:謝謝推薦,《艷陽天》這書,我有空找來看看。恕我直言,單憑一本書,很難說服我。我原本的觀點是,Newspeak對大陸人的整體國文水平很有影響。要證明之,必須有充足的語料,由於我沒有,暫時不想多談這個問題,況此地也不宜談。將來要是能收集到足夠的語料,我或寫幾篇網誌,談談自己的看法。

至於我博客裏論及的一些中文問題,確實大多與Newspeak無關。我寫得慢,寫得少,才學更是粗淺(非自謙之詞),不能一下子將中文的種種問題照顧周全。以後當注意收集語料,談談Newspeak。




Kenny,

I think we all recognize Mainland China's Newspeak, everyone except people who voluntarily use it.

IMO, one doesn't always have to be so vocal about one's objection to it. Like I said before, live and let live.

http://www.proz.com/post/1260500#1260500


 
ysun
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党八股 Jun 1, 2017

不知党八股跟经典误译有什么关系?党八股跟自由译者恐怕也没多大关系。话说回来,写党八股文章者其文字功夫不一定差。同样,写八股文章者其文字功夫也不一定差。

http://www.jxcbwg.com/www/19/56.html
八股文作为一种议论文的格式,具有它的典范性和严谨性,现代人若真能写出一手漂亮的八股文不能不被人恭奉为文章高手。

我上大二时,官方在不到一年时间内陆续发表了九篇评论苏共中央公开信的文章。有时我们已入睡,却被学校的高音喇叭轰起来,到大礼堂集中听中央台广播。这些文章马上就成了我们的必修政治教材。尽管我很讨厌这种学习,但我认为如果作者没一点文采,还真写不出这些党八股文章来。当然,也许是我中毒太深,自己却还不能觉察。 相比之下,那些X丝之类的粗俗网络语言才实在登不了大雅之堂。

中国时下术语专论


 
ysun
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关于“讨厌” Jun 1, 2017

Kenneth,

上面我不经意之际说了句“我很讨厌这种学习”。此后忽然想起,你在你的微博中曾说过,「討厭」,義即招人厭,故可說「你討厭」,不可說「我討厭你」。不过我认为,“我讨厌你”的说法早就为大众所接受。请见:

http://www.zdic.net/c/8/152/339239.htm
令人厭煩、不喜歡。
文明小史.第八回:「雖不常時也走過來問他要湯要水,無奈詞色之間,總擺出一副討厭他的意思。」


《文明小史》的作者是晚清秀才李伯元,字宝嘉。我没看过《文明小史》,但我早就看过李伯元的《官场现形记》,觉得写得不错。

http://www.dushu369.com/gudianmingzhu/gcxxj/



 
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